Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
The Elite Clubs National League was founded in 2009 and continues to lead by daring to do things differently, embedded with grit, collaboration and tenacity – all things learned from the beautiful game. The ECNL protects and propels the integrity of the game and everyone it impacts by facilitating the perfect symmetry of excellence and humility, exclusivity and accessibility, freedom and community. We believe that challenging everyone to rise to their best creates game-changers that live well, long after cleats are unlaced. Born out of the belief in a better way. Continued in the ever-evolving pursuit of excellence.
Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
Episode 92: Breaking the Line (feat: Christian Lavers and Doug Bracken)
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The ECNL Podcast features ECNL President and CEO, Christian Lavers and ECNL Vice President, Doug Bracken. Breaking the Line Podcast host, Dean Linke, talks with Lavers and Bracken about the new format of the podcast, and what listeners can look forward to as the podcast looks to pivot to having more candid conversations amongst themselves and other special guests as they discuss all things ECNL, as well as youth and professional soccer in here in the States.
Welcome to Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast, a bi-weekly look at all things related to the growing elite clubs nationally the ECNL. For more information on the ECNL, visit us at wwwtheecnlcom. Now here's your host for Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast, former US soccer press officer and longtime soccer broadcaster, dean Linke.
Speaker 2:Don't miss this week's edition of Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast with a new format, spearheaded by the president and CEO of the ECNL, Christian Lavers, and their vice president and chief of staff, Doug Bracken. Christian Lavers sets the tone for this week's show.
Speaker 3:How do we use this to connect better with the coaches and the clubs and the people in the league and the people that care about you soccer? The name of the podcast was Breaking the Line and the concept of that was to get beyond the field, get deeper into things that impact soccer, to get behind the scenes on decisions within soccer. We're going to try and just turn this into a more informal discussion back and forth on things that people want to talk about.
Speaker 2:And, as Doug Bracken says, that will include some reflection.
Speaker 4:I think it's always interesting just to think back and reflect on where we came from to where we are and how wildly different it is for the better for sure Be a part of the podcast.
Speaker 2:Send in your questions to info at the ECNL dot com, and we released a new format with Christian and Doug. I think you'll like it. After this message from the ECNL as the game continues to evolve.
Speaker 1:In the United States, the ECNL remains the standard of excellence in youth soccer. The elite club's National League has grown to include over 200 clubs and nearly 50,000 players across the country, with a robust competition platform for teams, educational resources for coaches and clubs, and unparalleled identification and development opportunities for players and unparalleled identification and development opportunities for players. Alongside its member clubs, collaborating to create a better future, the ECNL continues to raise the game every day. The ECNL is more than a league. Welcome back to Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast. Once again, here's Dean.
Speaker 2:This is Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast. And you know what? We are going to break the line, and we're going to do that now. And we're going to do that moving forward with this show. And we're going to do it with Doug Bracken, who's a VP for the ECNL he was there since day one, or day negative one, as they'll talk about as well as Christian Labors, the president and CEO of the ECNL, and here to talk about the new format for Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast. I'll turn it over to Mr Labors.
Speaker 3:I appreciate that, dan, and don't be going too far, because we want you involved in this as well, but I think what Doug and I've been talking about, and with people on our team internally, is just what is the best use of this podcast. How do we use this to connect better with the coaches and the clubs and the people in the league and the people that care about you soccer, and so the name of the podcast was Breaking the Line, and the concept of that was to get beyond the field, get deeper into things that impact soccer, to get behind the scenes on decisions within soccer, whether that's league, club, association, whatever it may be. We've tried a variety of different things in the podcast, as we know as you know, dean, I mean we've talked to different people about different topics college, pro, high school, all sorts of stuff but we're going to try and just turn this into a more informal discussion back and forth on things that we think, things that people want to talk about. We're going to invite people to send in questions to the league.
Speaker 4:Yeah, if you want to send in a question, it's info at theecnlcom. And I'll add that over 15 years of doing this, I'm sure Christian and I have formed lots of opinions and thoughts about what it's like to run a youth soccer league and just interact with people, and so we just want to bring you some of that help people understand what we're doing, why we're doing it, what our thoughts are about it, in a really authentic way. That's the challenge.
Speaker 2:Doug Bracken is doing it from the fanciest studio with the coolest glasses, so that's right, thank you. You guys rock and roll. The fanciest studio with the coolest glasses, so you guys rock and roll.
Speaker 4:I think at one point, at some point, if this gets as big as we know it will be, maybe we'll be on video as well and everybody can take in the professionalism with my studio.
Speaker 3:I have never really voluntarily solicited questions from people, but I do think that's what we want here and what we do here. Moving forward is because we want to talk about things that people care about and that they want to know about the league and about youth soccer, and that's what we're here for, and so we want this to be informal. We got a couple of ideas on things to talk about today, and one of them is actually coming from some questions that got sent into the league and that we know people are talking about at this time of year, because it's crazy time, as some people call it, with tryouts and parents looking everywhere and clubs looking everywhere and which league you're in and what you're going to do with your schedule is a gigantic piece of planning.
Speaker 4:We actually Christian, talked about that today at my club that are we getting close to the point where we will have a tryout and then the very next day have another tryout for the following year and offer kids? It keeps getting earlier and earlier and keeps pushing back. So I'm with you. It seems like the crazy time of year is kind of all all year, isn't it?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean I think it's gotten. I mean, if you go back 20 years ago, when it was, soccer was a very different thing. The cost structures were different, the competition structures were different and it's gone through a variety of different evolutions. But right now it seems really clear that one of the most important things to people is what league that you're in.
Speaker 3:I think we've publicly said many, many times leagues don't develop soccer players, and I'm going to repeat that again here and that's being said when being in the ECNL is one of the really positive things that clubs have and we're excited about that and we're obviously happy that people feel that way. But we're not going to sit here and claim that being in the ECNL means that your players are going to get better. I mean, at the end of the day, players get better because clubs help them. Players work hard. What we do is provide that stage for them and to the degree that competition helps push, motivate and challenge.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, leagues can play a role in that, but the fundamental ingredient of development is not the league game. It's what happens every day, what happens at home with the kid. But right now that's the topic and people talk about acronym soup, and which league and that, and what pathway and that and why is this decision made and who gets into this league and not that league, and that's probably the biggest conversation we hear right now this league has kind of pulled back the curtain on clubs.
Speaker 4:So, like 15 years ago, you and I never talked to each other. We don't know what you're doing. So I think another consequence I said this at the symposium is that we are much more communicating with each other now, so we kind of know there's a little bit more of an openness about development or what's happening at the club level and that, like 15, 20 years ago, I didn't know if what I was doing was the right thing, or how I was doing it or right, Because the comparison was only you know, you played a game and you won or you lost. You didn't know really. So I think that's the other thing I would say, although I, you know, I a hundred percent agree with you that clubs develop players, leagues don't develop players, but I think a league is has helped remove the barriers that existed that kept us from kind of talking to each other, learning from each other, finding out what are you doing, what am I doing? Even some, just some affirmation that what I'm doing is makes half you know, makes some sense.
Speaker 3:I think that's a good point because if you look at any I think, really really high performing industry or fast growing industry, people are learning from each other all the time. I mean, if you look in, even inside of companies, the most effective companies have really good communication between departments, between levels, alignment, whatever. And so to the degree that the sort of advent of our league has facilitated more communication between clubs, between directors, I think that does have an impact collaterally or tangentially on development, because people learn faster, right, they learn from each other faster, they test out ideas faster because they're getting more ideas. So to that degree, I think that's another reason for changing some of this format is, you know, more open communication, more open discussion, whether that's on this to stimulate questions across the ecosystem or just what's happened within our league is people have built relationships and opened up a little bit and shared ideas and questioned each other. All of that unquestionably has helped make soccer way better. Youth soccer is way better because of it.
Speaker 4:The other thing is now you're in a platform that kind of forces you to look at the standards that you have. I know that's a buzzword that people use all the time Standards, this standards, that which is funny sometimes, but it has, from a club level, made us look at our standards and say, hey, if this person who I'm competing against in my same platform is doing this to raise their level whether it be education or training, environment or whatever it pushes me to do that. And probably again, if I look at my environment, our environment or the environments that I interact with now compared to 15, 20 years ago, it's like they're not even recognizable. It's so much different. And I think a lot of that has been driven by wanting to be successful in this league, but also just by the league kind of pushing in various ways to make it happen, and I think it's had sort of peak hysteria right now has added a different dimension to a club.
Speaker 3:I mean because if you look back and it's still some some of the differentiators to. You know usys right now. Well, historically anyway, has been the sort of hashtag earn your place. Every team competes to move up to a level sort of the the Hoosiers no matter who you are, where you are, you can end on the pedestal. That was all team-based for so long. The DA was the first real club-based platform. We obviously jumped on that, the DA in 2007.
Speaker 3:But the importance of club now compared to team is significantly different and I think that's played a big role in the advancement of the sport. I mean, if you look back, one of the reasons we decided that a club-based league was the right thing to do. I mean there's a lot of them that you know. People playing now and coaching now don't even know what the alternative was back in. You know, let's just go back, you know in 2000 and let's just pick a day four. You know you had to win in your state league at U12 in order to get into the MRL Midwest Regionally Qualifier at 13. And then you had to finish in the top whatever at 13 to get into the MRL Rill at 14. And I might have the age groups wrong a little bit.
Speaker 4:I mean, listen, we didn't even have a state league Like everything we did was based around state cup, and if you had a bad day in the quarterfinals you were knocked out early yeah, you weren't in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, if you were a state cup finalist, for example, you got into whatever the next, the Ferraz regional league, whatever. But what that did is it put a huge amount of pressure to win at 12, 13, 14. Because if you didn't, it's not like you had a bad day and you could learn and get better the next day. If you had a bad day, you were stuck in a subpar competition level for another year, and so we looked at that. You know a couple of things. One is, in hindsight you look at that and you say, man, that is, that is some messed up incentives. Potentially, if you don't have people that are really careful about what they do, and you know, and that's not going to be the case with young coaches and you know, young parent first time parents in the sport or whatever.
Speaker 3:The other piece of it on a positive side is, if you had a team that did make its way up to whatever level State Cup at the time, or the regionals, or even nationals it was a really, really cool experience. But it was like one out of whatever number teams got that experience and the rest didn't even see anything like that, like that, and so there was a value to a club-based thing to be able to provide that type of experience of what does it feel like to be in a in a really high level game and what does it feel like to have something to chase that's meaningful. What does it feel like to be tested on a regular basis? There was something to be said to offering that to multiple teams in a club and not just the one team that wins.
Speaker 4:Yeah mean, I know you know at some point, whether it's today or not, we'll we'll talk about our competition structure. But I remember you and I having this conversation and this is kind of why and obviously the league has evolved in the championships or whatever. But you and I talked about why it was important to have some different levels or include as many teams in the postseason as we could, as it made sense, because we both talked about the experiences that our teams had had playing in something like that and it was just like one team and you saw the impact of in their development and how it affected them. And then how do we mirror that experience for more teams, more people?
Speaker 3:it was hard to scale across the club.
Speaker 4:Yeah right, but that's why we have gotten to the place we've gotten to in our competition. It's how do we give those kids and those players that experience and how does that help them elevate, get inspired?
Speaker 3:yeah, and I'm gonna jump in before we have somebody sitting here and say, oh yeah, so everybody gets a trophy now and blah, blah, blah. I mean at that, at the end of the day, in our league the best play the best and the best go on. You know we're just providing similar opportunities, that to different teams, that you know to expand that, but the best are still playing the best. And for everybody who says iron sharpens iron which I hate that phrase, by the way everybody who says that and believes that that happens in the league as well, but you can do both.
Speaker 4:Both things can be true, right, it doesn't have to be. Oh only these teams are anointed and allowed to go do this thing. Those teams can still do it and the best will play the best and ultimately the best will prevail at the end. But you can still do the other thing while you're doing that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think, false dichotomy man, we, we, we corrected the false dichotomy right, that's so important and because there's a finite number of teams and out there that are are going to achieve something like that. It doesn't mean we we don't aspire to that or dream to that or whatever, but even that team that's on the cusp, you give them that taste of it and then maybe that that does push them on to to make it or whatever.
Speaker 3:No, that's the uh old bobby bowden you lose a lot, then you lose a little, then you win a little, then you win a. No, that's the old Bobby Bowden you lose a lot, then you lose a little, then you win a little, then you win a lot. Right, that's the pathway. Sometimes you need that sort of heartbreaking man. We almost got there to get there the next year.
Speaker 4:Yeah, agreed. I think in those ways, we will always fall on the idea of clubs develop players, leagues don't develop players. What's important for us and what remains important and we always have to do, is just evaluate what we're doing, how we're setting up our competition, what the platform provides players so that we can allow for those teams players, clubs to reach what they're capable of reaching. I think there's a balance of what we're doing and providing and, again, the great thing is you and I both have the unique experience and all the leaders in the league of running clubs, so I see how it's affected my club and what it's done for our players, even though we lose sometimes and it's hard and it can't be discounted. That that's an important factor, I think, in development.
Speaker 3:Another reason for the club-based was the ability to sort of and again, standards is one of those words that you put that in the wrong person's hand and they just use it as a club, which I think is complete garbage. And there's people-.
Speaker 3:Christian we have standards I know we do the ability to sort of set some minimum standards is effective across a club in a way that it never could be in a team-based league. You know, and I remember back in the day, to schedule anything in multiple age groups required, you know, putting together a small tribe because every team had a different coach and a different manager. And so if you wanted to get a you know, even a game across three different age groups and bring everybody together, you had to talk to like 18 people. We saw this as the league grew and you know, certainly every club went through this and still is going through this, depending on when they've joined our league or something similar to it. But when you have to say there's a certain level of professionalism expected, a certain structure or simplicity of communication, a certain efficiency of administration on all the things that are necessary to coordinate schedules and games, that has to happen in this league, it does force a certain professionalization of structure. So it can't just be that, hey, team A trains over here with so-and-so, and if you want to talk to them, talk to this person. Team B trains in a different spot and they're in a different league, and if you want to do some of them, talk to them, because then you have wildly different experiences.
Speaker 3:And so Doug Lemoff would call this in the teaching space is a school like a mall, where every classroom is just a different brand, being done in a different way, or is it where there is a philosophy? You know that is through every classroom and I think it's the same thing. When we talk about a club, is it what we used to call just a collection of teams in the same thing? When we talk about a club, is it what we used to call just a collection of teams in the same jersey? Or is it actually a club that has some sort of methodology, some sort of philosophy or even, if you don't get that detailed, at least some sort of common organization structure and communication pathway? To be fair, you still see that in the youth system, where you look at a club and you can say, holy cow, there's like nobody in charge of that club.
Speaker 4:Well, I mean, I would even push back and say the next iteration it's not iteration is not the right word but the next step is because we've started to talk about that. Everybody used to call it curriculum right, which is was interesting, but we call it curriculum right, which is was interesting, but we call it. We have a methodology, you know. So I think now that's really, I think, the next step because, again, I know in my club it's like we're trying to get that to that point where you have a cohesive methodology and how we're doing things, which I'm sure a lot of clubs are trying to tackle that as well. So to me, that's the next like step for everybody is you're organized, what you're doing is coherent, your schedules jive, you're in the competition. That provides you what you need Now. You need to be have a little more prescribed way. You're going to go on this path with these players.
Speaker 3:It's a big challenge because staffing at the youth level is really really hard for a lot of reasons, I don't come to you and say I want to work nights and weekends, travel all the time. Right, right.
Speaker 4:I think that's the next kind of step is is clubs getting to that point? That's still a work in progress.
Speaker 2:The ECNL, always with an eye toward the future, including a new format for Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast, which will feature their president and CEO, christian Lavers, and their vice president, doug Bracken. They want your questions, they want to answer your questions on Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast. They will bring on guests as well. We're only getting rolling. When we come back We'll hear from Christian Lavers about quality control and overcoming constraints.
Speaker 1:That, after these messages from the proud partners of the ECNL, Soccercom is proud to partner with the ECNL to support the continued development of soccer in the US at the highest levels. We've been delivering quality soccer equipment and apparel to players, fans and coaches since 1984. Living and breathing the beautiful game ourselves. Our goal at Soccercom is to inspire you to play better, cheer louder and have more fun. Visit Soccercom today to check out our unmatched selection of gear, expert advice and stories of greatness at every level of the game. From athletes just starting to turn heads to some of the best athletes to ever play their games, gatorade shows that they are the proven fuel of the best. For the athletes who give everything, nothing beats Gatorade, the studied, tested and proven fuel of the ECNL.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast, where a new format led by President and CEO of the ECNL, Christian Lavers, and their Vice President, Doug Bracken. Before we took a break, we promised Christian Lavers coming back with quality control and overcoming constraints as a kickstart for this informal discussion that I think you'll find enlightening, as we continue to bring you more of Christian and Doug every two weeks and I turn it back over to Christian Labors.
Speaker 3:If you want to have some quality control. I mean, I think there's two, there's two constraints in soccer. It's fields is number one in terms of having a home and number two is staffing. You know, and it's one thing to find somebody and it's another thing to find the right body, you know, and somebody who actually to find somebody. And it's another thing to find the right body, you know, and somebody who actually will buy into what you're doing. You know, because again, by the way, I started coaching and most of most of us is like somebody gave you a team, a bag of balls and a phone tree at the time, dean, you might remember a phone and a pat on the behind and say good luck off you go, let me know if you need anything and we'll see you at the end of the year.
Speaker 3:You know banquet, you know, and it was all made up and you had a banquet well hold on wait a second. Probably wasn't. Bank was probably at the end of the year. Like we'll all go have a beer, you know I played for the wrong club.
Speaker 4:We never had a banquet.
Speaker 3:The bank was about that thank you cards back in that time too from people do gift cards like the team would give you, like a gift card for.
Speaker 3:Starbucks. That doesn't happen. And if it does, it's probably some sort of issue you got to deal with, you know. But, like now, you got to find somebody who says, hey, are you serious about this and are you actually going to, like, help these kids not just be successful this year but connect to next year? And, you know, go beyond you. Or is it your little fiefdom and you know, I don't know, I've, I've found that it's very. You know the old phrase you can't teach an old dog new tricks. If people come into a club with this is their way and they've been coaching for 30 years and you have a different, you know a different philosophy, it's really hard to get people to change and fit in. You know they're just going to do it their way, come hell or high water, totally.
Speaker 4:That's why I would lean on young people who come in who are eager to learn, and try to teach them something, rather than like deal with somebody who's you know like said set in their ways and not going to hear what you have to say. I think it's always interesting just to think back and reflect on you know where we came from, to where, where we are, and how wildly different it is for the better. For sure, in a lot of ways. I mean probably in some ways not, but it is it's crazy to think where and I I mean probably in some ways not, but it is it's crazy to think where and I, I was you were talking about when we were in the team-based system, how just trying to communicate to change anything was a monumental task. I mean kind of.
Speaker 4:What did it for me was, you know, having multiple teams coaching, multiple teams that were playing in state cup finals and playing at the same time, and people saying, no, we're finals and playing at the same time, and people saying, no, we're not going to change your game time. We, we were lucky enough one year to have and I'm sure there are lots of clubs that had this, but we had two teams make the regional final and I coached, happened to coach both of those teams and they played at the same time and the organizers of the event were like, sorry, and you're just like, so I have to tell one of my teams in the biggest game of the season that I can't be with them and I can't coach them. So I think Did they win that game without you? By the way, they did not. We lost both games actually.
Speaker 4:Maybe you should have just been I should have just gone home and we were in South Dakota, by the way, which was super, super awesome. But and we were in South Dakota, by the way, which you know was super, super- awesome.
Speaker 3:But yeah, ironically ironically, after the ECNL started, I think Doug and I's team got randomly drawn quote unquote to face each other in USYS regionals. Every year, on day one, game one. And it's an actual mathematical coincidence that that happened.
Speaker 4:Or oh, hey, by the way, next year in State Cup you guys aren't going to be allowed to wear those ECNL patches on your shirt. That happened as well. You're like, oh okay.
Speaker 3:Dean I'm going to bring you in here, man, because you've been listening to all this. You bring a perspective of you know. You've been around the game a long time and different things. Any of this resonate to you?
Speaker 2:Are any of this resonate to you? Are we poking at parts of your brain that haven't lit up in a while? Yeah, you are, because, as you know, I've been around the college game and the pro game for a long time, started at US Soccer, then MLS and now doing all of your select games and being around you for the podcast. And everywhere I go, people ask me that have clubs like. And everywhere I go, people ask me that have clubs like. The biggest thing is how do we get in Like they want in the ECNL? And I don't know that answer specifically, and so I'm telling you like I've had that question asked to me by double digit people. Are you surprised by that?
Speaker 3:Come on three digits at least, and that is what you call a segue. I believe that was very well done, dean.
Speaker 4:And that is a very multifaceted question.
Speaker 3:We can talk forever on this. When we started in 2009, it was 40 clubs. There were more than 40 clubs in the room, but not all of them wanted to go. Now, between ecnl and ecnl rl, I don't even know the number of clubs, it's probably over 500, you know. If you count boys and girls differently, sure it's over no question. Yeah, so the. The last thing in anybody's mind ever was like create this sort of the phrase used to be gated community or golden ticket or whatever. That was never the intention. I mean, when we started in 09, it was hey, how do we just get better games? Because if you had a good team in 09, you played in your core part of your season. You played state cup where, if you were a good team, you probably played four or five games that you won by seven or nine or ten goals, and then you christian you had the really good 90 91 team right that won a national championship.
Speaker 4:Is that, or which team did you? You had the one team that won the national championship yeah, I don't know, that's wise so how many good games that year you won? The national championship means you're the best team in the country. How many good games did you play that year?
Speaker 3:it was certainly outside of of. Uh yeah, less, less than 10, maybe even less than seven. That were actually one goal games or two goal games and how many games totally do you think you play?
Speaker 3:40, 50 30, 40, probably mid, probably 40, you know, and and the other piece to that and listen, everybody who's listening to this podcast has probably had a team that you know fits the bill of hey, this is a really good age group, for whatever reason or not. And if the middle of your primary season you have three to four weeks of non-competitive games, what we would see is, hey, week one is fine, everybody goes, they train, they're dominant, they come back to training. Week two, you start to see some slippage in quality. By week three, training is dropped off dramatically because they've just won the last five games by seven to 10 goals. Their kids, they're bored, they're, they're arrogant, you know, whatever it may be.
Speaker 3:And then you get to one game that's, you know, maybe going to be tougher if you're in certain states and other states that maybe even wasn't then. And if you lose that game, everything's done. And if you win that game, well, good, you're going to get a few more games that are going to be good at some point when you get to regionals. But even in regionals, you know the old. The old thing was I hope you draw certain states so that their games are easier and you stay away from other states. Until later you got into that mode and it just, it just wasn't, it wasn't productive.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so we got off topic there. How do I, how do I get my club in the ECNL Christian?
Speaker 3:The first part is I think I say this a lot as well we want people to say they want to be in the league because it's the number one league. But more important than that is we want them to be in the league because they're aligned with us in values and what we believe. And so I start with that, because we don't want people in the league that are just looking for what's good. Now, you know, we don't want people who are in the league because where they were just kind of fell apart on them and they're saying, well, I guess I'll go look at the ECNL now, since that's here and the other one isn't like cause. That's a recipe for just constant change, disaster and whatever. And, like in any profession, any endeavor, you can't achieve things if you're constantly, you know, dealing with shifting grounds, you know you have to worry about just being able to stand up and, you know, get things done. You need to have some stability in order to build, grow and improve. And so we want people that are with us for the long term, which means they're aligned with what we believe in, number one of which is youth soccer should be led by youth soccer people. That's our first, our probably core value today and tomorrow it's going to be greener in whatever acronym yard. Then we don't want. We don't want that club, we want the club who's here and they're going to be here because they believe in what we do.
Speaker 3:And then it's a question of you know we are going to look at performance and we're going to look at performance across multiple age groups Cause, as I said earlier, you know, everybody can, not everybody, but a lot of clubs will have one team here, another team there. That's pretty good. And then you got age groups that you know really, really struggle. And that's one of the hard parts of being in the ECNL is because it is club based, for all the reasons we went through. So you have to be able to bring six age groups of teams that are able and willing to compete at a certain level, and what that means for a lot of clubs, because there's different levels of clubs in the league, you're going to have a couple age groups that may be fighting to be in the top. Third, you're going to have some age groups that are fighting to be mid-table and then a lot of clubs not every club by any stretch, but a lot of clubs are going to have an age group or two that's going to be fighting just not to be in the bottom two or the bottom three. That requires a different level of commitment and a buy-in and support from not just the club and the coaches but the parents and the players, because they got to look and say I got to get better.
Speaker 3:It's a look across the whole club and one of the challenges we've had, you know, over the last couple of years, is just where do you get an accurate barometer of who is the best club? That's not in the league, you know, because there are so many different things. People say, hey, it's a fractured youth landscape. Right, I hear that all the time. And I want to correct them because it's fractured outside of the ECNL and outside of us club soccer. That's where it's mostly fractured. But within ECNL and within us club soccer more more broadly, the landscape is pretty clean and clear, you know.
Speaker 3:But if we're going to look and say, well, okay, we, we're going to expand because we feel like that's best for our competition structure, then we have to figure out well, who does that include? And I tell you, you know, the way it used to be is we had to have these paper applications come in. I mean, this is a. This is a horrible process to go through, but they would come in and I mean, and people would put in their developmental methodology and their curriculum and all this other stuff that I mean, listen, I can download Oppenheimer's thesis about how to create an atom bomb. It doesn't mean I actually do it or actually understand it, you know.
Speaker 3:So there was that piece, but then it was a list of players and I remember looking at applications from different clubs in the same city that would both claim they developed the same player, because you know the kids spent you know this, you know one year in this club and eight years in that club or whatever. And then you have a list of games of who beat who and some of them were formal competitions, some of them informal, some of them, you know, you look at and say, was that? You know you'd say you didn't actually play that team. You played a team two levels down but you just mislabeled it. You know it was a nightmare.
Speaker 4:You remember when we uh, we got all those applications and we were trying to get a foothold in Florida, get down to Florida, we had all these applications and Christian and I were like I don't, I don't know. And he's like let's just go down there, let's just go down there, let's just go down there. So christian and I went down to clear water when we had all these clubs come and meet with us and talk to us, and that's how we figured out what was what right, because you know we did that twice.
Speaker 3:We did that in portland as well. Yeah, for the record, we're not ever doing that again uh, well, right, right, I think. I think it's now why don't you come in and see our club?
Speaker 4:yeah, with all humility, it's probably now to the point where you know you know right, you don't need to do that. But I think at that point there was enough of it, of uncertainty of how do we, you, get in the right people and trying to build it on the right foundation. That maybe just we needed to do that a couple of times.
Speaker 3:Oh, no, listen, don't get me wrong. I think we needed to do that in those two circumstances. My point now is if we were open to doing that now, you, me or somebody on our staff would be on the road 365 days a year just looking at clubs.
Speaker 4:Yeah right.
Speaker 3:The other fact is it's like anyone can put on a dog and pony show. Yeah, I mean we were definitely in a different time. There, man, the point was it was really, really hard. I mean, in the first year it wasn't that hard, man, because, like in 2007, dallas, texans and san diego surf were not in the cnl, that one didn't take a lot of thinking when they said, okay, we'll join it was like uh duh, okay, yeah, texans.
Speaker 3:Texans came in the second, second year yeah, and so for a while some of those decisions were pretty straightforward. You know, now the onion has been. You know, you know we've cut the onion so thin. And I think the other piece to this is I don't want to put my hand up and I don't think you do either, or anybody on our staff and say hey, we're the judge of who's good enough or not. Yeah, not a chance. Are we pretending that we're going to walk in and listen?
Speaker 3:I remember doing that when I was in the DA on the boy side, and people would come and watch one training session in a year and then they would give a grade on your training sessions and it was like you know, this is the. This is the biggest farce I've ever seen. So we're not pretending that now. So I'd like to go back. It's like we're going to look at your performance and we're going to try and figure out what does that mean? And, by the way, if you win certain things, it might not mean that much, because the level might not be very high, and if you win other things, it might mean more, and if you have players that have been, that have gone on and done really good things, it might mean a lot or it might not mean much at all. You know so they're. All these things are so they're so subjective. That's part of the great thing about the game, right. It's so subjective in so many different ways and you add youth to it and it gets even more complicated. But that's ultimately why we created.
Speaker 3:One of the reasons why we created the regional leagues is because we can look at the regional leagues and we know what the level of the regional leagues are compared to. What is the level of EA, dpl, ga, npl, usl, e64, whatever? I'm missing some, right? We know that level because we have clubs in that league. We have clubs with multiple teams in the at the UCNL and the RL, and so we can compare within a club, we can compare across clubs, we can compare when they move up into the post-season and we get a real sense of okay, how's this club doing in a level that we know.
Speaker 3:You know this league in this area of the country is about here and I'm putting my hands up right now in this league in this area, country's a little stronger. That's actually still subjective. You know somebody is going to sit there and yell and say it's still subjective, and it is, but it's less subjective than saying well, I don't know. I don't even know who half the clubs are in this acronym league. You know much less. You know who, who you play what. How important was the game that you played at this random tournament?
Speaker 4:You know it's no, it's way too hard to make it completely objective. You couldn't. I mean it's impossible to do it that way.
Speaker 3:And if we make it completely objective, then we're back to some of those very weird incentives of if you win a lot at 12, when it's easier to win at 12 by doing some long-term negative things developmentally. Well, if we start putting really bright lines, which that's what some people want, we'll put in a bright line. You know, tell me, tell me, tell me. Well, then we're sort of messing up some of these incentives. And but make no mistake, performance proves over time. If you're doing a good job, you're going to, you're going to win more over time. Performance proves over player development horizons. Clubs that have more and more players that have gone on to college and beyond and not just like signed I always make the point you sign and then you never play right, you get a sweatshirt to do dorm security when you don't travel.
Speaker 4:But clubs that was that was that you are. You are you talking about your college experience? College?
Speaker 3:experience did not have a lot of highlights, that's for sure. But for real, if you have kids that go on and do well, that's different than kids that just got a cup of tea, but that proves over time everybody can have a one-off right. Because, back to our previous points, the first person that should be credited with player development is the player. You put a fantastic player in a fantastic environment, great things happen. You put a fantastic player in an average environment, they're still probably going to be fantastic. And if you put a fantastic player in a bad environment let's not talk about bad environment developmentally, let's just put that as the name of bad the fantastic player is still going to be pretty damn good because the player is the player, no question.
Speaker 3:So you know, at the end of the day you put all these together and the answer to how do you get into the ECL is we look at your club as holistically as possible, over the longest time, hurry as possible, with the most objective perspective we can take, and then we say we think this makes sense or it doesn't. And that's being honest. I mean, at the end of the day we don't look and say, well, if you won this many titles or you won this many leagues, or if you have this many players in these level schools, like all of those are factors in it. And then we also, you know that narrows factors in it, and then we also you know that narrows it down a lot. And then we also have to look and say, okay, what's the market like in that area? And that's you know, probably early on it was okay, and I think the Federation did this at the beginning of the DA and it's an interesting thing where they looked at where did all the national team kids come from? All the youth national team is full national kids.
Speaker 3:Mapped them out and then looked at that and said based, if this is where all the players are coming in and we want a presence that is sort of pro rata, for lack of a better term of like. If Atlanta is a hotbed and Southern California is a hotbed, well then we need X number of programs there, need X number of programs there. And then there is no player ever in the history of the world that has come out of this area and played for the national team. Well, we probably don't need a club there.
Speaker 3:I think there was some thought of that very mathematical way back when you'd have to talk to somebody else on the details. But that's what I was told anyway. But we did at some point early on look at, okay, well, how many clubs do we think this market can quote, unquote, support right at a high level? I think we've moved away from that to a great degree because, at the end of the day, the sport is growing, markets are changing and you know players can come out of a variety of places, you know given the right, you know environment.
Speaker 4:It would also be super easy for us to move people out, move people in, based on the wind and a year or whatever. And I think the other thing it's important to say here is we understand how hard it is and what goes into running a club and playing in a league like this, and we want to support the clubs and give them the opportunity to be successful. That has an impact. We're not just saying, oh, you know, this year you're not good enough, goodbye.
Speaker 3:And well, that's a whole nother topic. Right About moving out, that's a whole nother topic. We can go on this today or another, but I think Dean asked how you got in, which you did say but I just want to make that point because it's not so simple as to say nobody will ask that question again because we're on like the 20th minute of the answer, we still haven't answered it and dean's looking at me like when are you going to give me an answer?
Speaker 3:there is no easy answer christian, really there is no the last piece to that is we used to be sort of more about how many clubs in a market and I don't think that's as important to us now. It still plays a little bit in because at some point there is a drop off, but it's proven not to be as small as it was in the minds of the Federation in 07 and certainly what it was in other people's minds. There's more room for growth. I mean, somebody's going to say, well, look at all the clubs in England. You know, and there's some truth to that.
Speaker 3:But we do have to look at how many games can you play in the available competition weekends and how far do you travel to play those games, and at some point you can't build a structure to have everybody you know. So there is a real cap of you know, if you're in Wisconsin and you know you can't go outside and play soccer from November 15th until April 15th and then you have high school soccer at a certain period of time, there's only so many competition windows you have. If you're in Southern California, you have more competition windows. If you're in Ohio, you got more than Wisconsin but you got less than Southern California, right, and so there are some real issues with that.
Speaker 3:And then the other piece is a lot of our expansion over the last couple of years has been to try, you know, recognizing that players are coming from more and more places because people are doing a good job, and also recognizing that people don't want to spend their whole life in hotels and on four hour drives to play soccer. Probably when all of us were young soccer coaches with nothing better to do, we didn't mind that. But at some point most people say, hey, you know what, I don't need to drive four hours and stay in two Marriotts to get a good game, that I can get a similar game or maybe a little less less quality game by staying at home. And so we've tried to make it so that we're we're doing what we can, not to have the structure itself demand so much cost and travel that it becomes, you know, prohibitive we spend.
Speaker 4:I mean, I don't know if you could put a number on the man hours that we spend talking about it, going through it, trying to figure it out. It's a lot, we spend a lot. It's not a. We're not dismissive of it, so a lot goes into it.
Speaker 3:And on that note, there are clubs that applied and got in right away and we can go all the way back to to, you know, the early years when it was really easy. There are clubs if jason cutney was on this he would he would quite happily say he applied for like four years with the pittsburgh ribbons before they got in. Dean's shaking his head right because he's heard jason whine about that he is still really whiny about that.
Speaker 4:I don't know why. I'm the one that he called for three years for what it's worth.
Speaker 3:That is true. Yes, that is true. I did not talk to him. Christian was like who is this? Jason Cutney? This is true. That's also true.
Speaker 3:And then there's clubs that are still applying, that aren't in, and they are probably understandably, annoyed, frustrated, whatever the word may be. But I can tell you of all the things that we've said and hopefully the message is it's a very, it's a very complicated thing. That's not an algorithm, it's just, it's. It's more art than science, and anyone who's telling you that in any league, who's not saying that, is lying to you. The answer is we take it very seriously. We try and make the best possible decision for for the league, the clubs involved, the players.
Speaker 3:We don't always get it right. There may be decisions we make that people, other reasonable people would have a different opinion on, and that's life In general. What we've done is try to provide more opportunity, not less. Nobody has a veto right. There's no blackballing. That goes on and ultimately I think over time we've gotten a lot more of it right than we've gotten wrong. But we're operating in a very complex environment that has a lot of different variables and a lot, you know, people can have different weight to different variables in a reasonable way, dean, you're raising your hand. What you got?
Speaker 2:Yeah, whether inside the answer of that question or within the context of what you guys have been talking about, this entire thing is both of you are saying players a lot, and you may think this is over the top, but I actually feel lucky. My first exposure to soccer was with Michelle Akers and Mia Hamm, and then my next camp was with Ted Ramos and Tony Miola, and one of the things that excites me every time I call an ECNL selection game is the players are legit From 1 to 20, they're legit. And then when I call the U19 championship game, the players are legit. It's working, and I'm a broadcaster. I call what I see, and what I see is really, really good soccer.
Speaker 3:You're right, and I'll probably misquote Anson Dorrance on this. I remember it was one of his first books. He said something about politics is what it takes if you're not good enough. And the point is, at the end of the day, everyone in the country would agree on who the most successful the top 25 most successful clubs, you know. Or maybe let's go top 15. Maybe it's a little bit more difficult.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'd say 15, yeah.
Speaker 3:Let's go 15. Everybody would say, okay, yeah, these guys are without a doubt. And then after that you're going to get a broader and broader divergence of opinion Right, and at the end of the day, the level of play speaks for itself. The players are really really good and I think that says that we've definitely gotten it right more often than wrong. But the answer is if people want to be in the league which we want, we want people always to be in the league then the answer is just keep working, keep getting better, keep having players that do better.
Speaker 2:Agreed. Isn't it true that Christian did say that he could do the Oppenheimer?
Speaker 4:I think he thinks deep down that he could. I don't know, I did.
Speaker 3:I watched that movie. I don't know if anyone's ever seen it. It's a really, really good movie. I was very, very disturbed at the end of it with how he was treated. It reminded me of imitation game similar, similar, disturbing. But then I bought the book because I was like I got to read and see if this actually is all true. And the book is like 700 pages it's much longer than that.
Speaker 4:It was pretty accurate, pretty crazy do you see how christian tried to say? He just read a 700 page book and he's trying to make us all feel.
Speaker 3:Well, there's a little answer about. You know how we try and make good decision, hopefully, because somebody sent this uh question in. You know I forget where it went to, but this it was actually one of these things that made us say, hey, let's change. Let's change the format of this a little bit and see how it goes and try and use this platform to talk to people about things that they really want to know. Somebody said, hey, how do you get into the ECNL? The question was worded differently than that. I mean, obviously we're asked that question a thousand times.
Speaker 4:This is where I plug in and say if you have a question, send it to info at theecnlcom. As Christian said, we want to hear, we want to answer the questions that you have and we'll do it as honestly and transparently as we can. Doug say that email one more time. It's info at theecnlcom.
Speaker 2:Info at theecnlcom.
Speaker 3:We had like a couple of topics we thought we might get to today. I think we just got to one. We had like a couple of topics we thought we might get to today. I think we just got to one. Hopefully it was helpful for people who listen and I'm sure it will spark some sort of debate or comment. And, by the way, for the record, if you disagree, that's fine. We understand that. We don't need to argue about it. We understand there's plenty of people that disagree on what we do or why, but we're trying to do it the right way. We're trying to do it the right way.
Speaker 3:It is not a Doug decision or a Christian decision. It is a multitude of people in the decision and a multitude of staff that contribute to the information and we're going to keep working to get it right. And ultimately, it matters to us to have people that are trying to do the quote unquote right thing in terms of develop good players in a good environment. It matters to us to have a pathway for those clubs to come in to the league. It also matters to us that we want stability long-term and we want people who can count on the league and not a league that can just turn around and pull the rugs out from underneath them when they're working hard to try and do the right thing.
Speaker 4:We want clubs who are similarly aligned with what we want to do and what we're trying to do, so that we have stability. I mean it goes both ways. Stability, it's not one way.
Speaker 3:There's lots of places you can play and we're just we're trying to make ours, you know, the most exciting, highest level we can just, like other people in the space are. So that's actually not a bad thing that we're we're pushed to keep moving our bar higher because other people are chasing us and we work very hard not to be complacent in that, so that we are constantly sort of providing the new experience, the best opportunities, and we talk about that all the time.
Speaker 2:Indeed they do. New format Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast with ECNL leaders Christian Lavers and Doug Bracken. We have one final segment, as Doug poses a question to Christian and even me, that after more messages from the corporate partners of the ECNL.
Speaker 1:Nike is a proud sponsor of ECNL Girls. Nothing can stop what we can do together to bring positive change to our communities. You can't stop sport because hashtag. You can't stop our voices. Follow Nike on Instagram, facebook and Twitter.
Speaker 2:The ECNL is pleased to announce Quick Goal as the official goal provider and partner for ECNL girls and ECNL boys. A new partnership created to support the growth and development of the country's top players, clubs and coaches At all national events, including national playoffs and national finals. The Quick Goal Coaches Corner will provide hospitality and social space for ECNL girls, ecnl boys and collegiate coaches. Quick Goal will also be the presenting sponsor of the national championship-winning ECNL Girls and ECNL Boys Coaches of the Year and the ECNL girls and ECNL boys coaches of the year and the ECNL girls and ECNL boys goals of the year. Quick Goal looks forward to helping the ECNL continue to elevate the standards of youth soccer and provide more opportunities to players on and off the field in the coming years.
Speaker 4:Christian. I'm going to add a segment to this because I think it'd be fun, Christian, if you were not a president and CEO of Youth Soccer Club, what would you be? A physicist.
Speaker 3:I would not be a physicist, I would probably be still negotiating commercial transactions for legal. Doesn't that sound fun, Doug? I know Dean is like why didn't I hang out at law school?
Speaker 4:Dean, if I wasn't the vice president and chief of staff of the EC&L, I would want to be a broadcaster.
Speaker 2:You told me that once yeah.
Speaker 4:But I did not have it like.
Speaker 3:you got it so it is what it is.
Speaker 4:What's plan B Dean doesn't have a plan B, Dean what's your plan B If this broadcasting thing doesn't work out? What are you doing?
Speaker 2:You know what's funny I'm going to be a coach, but not for soccer. I'm going to be a basketball coach. That's what I would do, for sure. I coached my kids all the way through and got to hang around with Eric Montross and some pretty cool people, and I enjoyed it. I talk to coaches every day. You know, right before this call, I was talking to Kelly Amante Hiller, the Northwestern legendary coach for women's lacrosse, who's won eight national championships, and Hannah Nielsen, who's getting ready to play in her sixth world cup, and you know their passion for, for coaching and helping young women become great citizens. That's what I'd want to do.
Speaker 3:You know, I think it's probably time that we wind this up. We have some topics we think are going to be interesting about the league, about youth soccer, about a bunch of stuff moving forward. Please, we're open to talk and, Dean, I know you're out there talking to a bunch of people. You probably have your own things to throw into this, but this was awesome guys.
Speaker 2:It was awesome and once again to send in questions to be featured on Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast with Christian Labors, doug Bracken and selected guests. Once again, that email is info at the ECNL dot com for Christian Labors, doug Bracken, all of the great people at the ECNL, as well as my producer, colin Thrash. I'm Dean Linke. We'll see you in two weeks with more of the new people at the ECNL, as well as my producer, colin Thrash. I'm Dean Linke. We'll see you in two weeks with more of the new format of Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast with Christian Labors and Doug Bracken. Have a great two weeks everybody.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast. For more information on the ECNL, visit us at wwwtheecnlcom, and if you have a suggestion for the show or a great idea for a guest, please email us at info at theecnlcom. Breaking the line the ECNL podcast is an ECNL production. Ecnl more than a league.