Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
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Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
Versatility vs. Specialization: Navigating Youth Soccer Development and Positional Flexibility | Ep.104
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What happens when young soccer players are encouraged to explore multiple positions versus specializing early? Our conversation sheds light on the importance of understanding a player's attributes and the role of the training environment in nurturing these talents. We explore how an early focus on specific skills can shape a player's progression and discuss the impact of transitioning from smaller-sided games to full 11v11 formats. The debate on whether versatility or specialization truly benefits a young athlete unfolds, revealing how coaches play a pivotal role in guiding and sculpting the potential of their players.
Welcome to Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast, a bi-weekly look at all things ECNL, covering topics that you care about and topics that make a difference. As always, leading the discussion today is ECNL President and CEO Christian Labors, ecnl Vice President and Chief of Staff, Doug Bracken, and Ashley Willis, ecnl's Partnership Activation and Alumni Relations Manager. Today's show will also include an introduction to the now full-time videographer for the ECNL, mr Reed Sellers, and, after a record-setting show two weeks ago, christian Labors. What will we hit?
Speaker 2:today A wide-ranging discussion on positions and developments, and profiling.
Speaker 1:Great topics and a lively debate on all of the issues, capped off with Doug Bracken's Brain Buster. And to get things started after this message from ECNL, corporate partner Nike.
Speaker 3:Nike is a proud sponsor of ECNL. Nothing can stop what we can do together to bring positive change to our communities. You can't stop sport because hashtag. You can't stop our voices. Follow Nike on Instagram, facebook and Twitter.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast. I am Dean Linke. You just heard me break down today's topic, so to kick things started, I turn it back over to Christian Labors.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, Dean, and here we are again. Same group, Mr Bracken, Ms Willis. Good to see you guys. Hello, Christian.
Speaker 4:Got a great blue shirt on today, very blue.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I like blue this is a podcast actually.
Speaker 5:So we probably shouldn't talk about colors people are wearing, because then people can't actually see it.
Speaker 4:Not if Reid's going to do video marketing for us, it's fair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have a special guest here. I don't know how much he's going to say today, but Reid, new videographer for the League. Welcome to the League. Been working with the League for a long time on a part-time basis, but now you are here full-time and you didn't expect that you would be called on on this podcast. But we're going to put you on the spot anyway and say welcome to the ECNL full time.
Speaker 6:Awesome. Thank you, yeah, no, I'm super excited. I love it. Past two or three years have been great.
Speaker 2:Happy to be here on the podcast for the first time and look forward to it coming up. A lot of the cool video stuff that people have seen in the league over the last couple of years Not all of it, but a lot of it's been done by Mr Reed, so now you've heard the voice behind the camera.
Speaker 5:Very cool. Well done, Reed. Thank you.
Speaker 2:So last week, approaching one of our biggest, if not the biggest, listener tally ever which is awesome tells us that we're getting more and more topics I think that people are interested in, and we want to do that and talk about things that matter, and one of the things we talked about last week was some of the misconceptions and some of the theory or thought behind multi-sport and specialized athletes and age groups, that that matters or doesn't matter. Good and bad, because it's, as in most things, interesting. There's no right or wrong answer. There's areas of gray and continuums, and today we're going to sort of expand on that, specifically within the sport of soccer and talking about for lack of a better word specialization, or specialize in position versus being in playing multiple positions, or the versatile player profiles of positions, how positions and profiles may change over time based on the age of the player. So, ashley, where do you want to start on that?
Speaker 4:what is your guys's stance on players having multiple positions in the youth game? Should they only have one position that they are very good at Two, three, four, 11?
Speaker 5:I'll jump in, because my view of this has changed, I think, over the years of coaching, again recognizing that there is no absolute answer, because you're always going to have players that are versatile or maybe a little bit of a jack-of-all-trades. As Christian knows, I'm a fan of my hometown team of FC Cincinnati and they have a player named Yuya Kubo, and Yuya Kubo has literally played every position except goalkeeper, and that's at the professional level, so it does happen.
Speaker 2:We got to say to every parent listening to this podcast do not expect to be Yuya Kubo and play 10 positions.
Speaker 5:Now I'm going to answer Because I think if you want to be good at something, you have to practice it and there are very different and unique skills that are required of a center back versus a forward, and you can name all the positions and they have very unique skill sets and very unique requirements. To me, in order to be a very good high level, even a professional player working on a position, and understanding the nuance and the craft that goes into playing that position, I think is really important. So I think this idea that in order to develop or be a good soccer player, you have to play all these different positions and have all these things, I would argue I don't believe in that. I think that specializing and understanding a position is important if you want to be good at it, because all of them have very unique things that you have to do to be successful.
Speaker 2:I'm going to steal somebody's line and say not so fast. Okay, because I think and I think you'd agree with me because you're talking about an older player in that example and context and I would say that if you look at a soccer player, there are some core skills passing, receiving, dribbling, heading, striking that are required in every position. Then there are the more specialized skills or the skills that you do way more frequently in some positions than others. So, for example, a center back is going to need to be probably better in the air and winning air contests and air challenges and heading than an outside midfielder, just if we're going to speak generally. But in order to be a good center back at any level or a good right midfielder at any level, you generally have to be able to pass, receive, dribble and strike the ball to a minimum level of quality. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:If you go, take this all the way down to the young parent, the first time parent of a young player, you eight, you 10, whatever. I think there can be way too much focus on the what is the position that my kid is playing and, by the way, they always want to be center, midfield or center forward. Nobody says I can't wait for my kid to be a center back for some reason, which is really unfair to center backs. But at your average eight or nine-year-old parent, I think you would agree tell me if I'm wrong that focusing on which position and being a specialist in a position at that age is not appropriate.
Speaker 5:I don't think it's not appropriate. It could be appropriate. I think you can acquire the skills and the things you're talking about. I think you can acquire the skills and the things you're talking about striking, receiving, and still start to understand and start to learn the specifics of a certain position. I think what I've probably been faced with more is the desire for the kids oh, they should be playing. My kid needs to play every position. They need to play a lot of positions and I don't agree with that.
Speaker 2:I agree with that.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think that you can do what you're talking about Now. I think this is a very complicated question because I think there are also certain characteristics that you might see in a kid early on that might lend you to say this player would be and we'll talk about this, I'm sure, in player profiles but this player would be a really good this and that may make you invest in that player in that position. There may be some players who that evolves over time. There's not a blanket right or wrong, but I don't necessarily think that you can't do it and still acquire the skills that you were talking about generally, that you need to be successful.
Speaker 2:Okay, so there's the extremes of the continuum and there's in the middle. So I think I think we would say you tell me true or false and actually weigh in on this. You're eight years old. You should not play in goal the entire game, every game, at age eight and expect that you're going to end up being a successful soccer player or goalkeeper, true or false?
Speaker 5:I agree that you shouldn't, but I don't think it means that you wouldn't be successful if you did. Depends on the training environment and what you're doing, what the training environment is with your goalkeepers.
Speaker 4:I would probably have to agree with Doug for the most part on that. I don't think playing in goal at eight means you're going to be a good or bad field player.
Speaker 2:I think if you look at the majority of goalkeepers and this is totally subjective, so again, we're open to fact-checking. We don't have any moderators here to fact-check one of us and not the other, but if we're going to talk about it, most successful goalkeepers at the highest level or at least maybe I shouldn't say most, a majority seem to have specialized in goal later than earlier true, I don't know, maybe don't?
Speaker 4:we have one goalkeeper on the men's team who didn't play until senior, just didn't.
Speaker 2:But in the college well, that's the opposite of specialization. Not playing would be. You know, that's right, I don't, but didn't Into college. Well, that's the opposite of specialization. Not playing would be, you know, not special.
Speaker 4:I don't think he played goalkeeper. I think he played on the field.
Speaker 2:I don't think he played. I think he started the sport late.
Speaker 4:He did not play.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, we're talking about Matt Turner, right yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah, Matt Turner, yeah he came, came to the sport late, right, yeah, I mean you have the Christian example of Hope Solo, who was a field player, a very dominant field player, who then became a goalkeeper and then obviously rose to prominence as a goalkeeper. I don't think one size fits all. If you have a kid whose skill, then mentality and desires relate to goalkeeping. So I think this is a tough one to use as an example. And in the training environment did you provide the necessary acquisition of skill to understand that in the modern game we're going to try to play the ball back to your feet and we're going to ask you to give it back to us in a useful way? I think you can do that in training and still have that player playing goal in the game to gain their game experience as a goalkeeper, that's possible, but would you put that player in goal every minute of every game at AHA?
Speaker 5:I would not do that, but I'm not saying that it's not possible. Maybe that kid, that's what they want to do. That's also part of it. I don't think it's impossible for them to be highly successful by starting to specialize in goal early, if I have the right training environment, generally do I do it. Or do we see kids that are eight years old? They're like oh my God, I want to be a goalkeeper. No, not generally.
Speaker 2:I'll make another statement here. You could say true or false, or react. Which position you play. Let's go on the field now. Which position you play, and whether you play one or many, as a young player, has any impact on your long-term development. So, if you're a young player, whether you play one position predominantly or whether you play five different positions at an equal basis has an impact on your long-term development 100%.
Speaker 5:Yes, it does.
Speaker 2:In what ways?
Speaker 5:Because, again, as I said at the beginning, I think there are things that you do in certain positions, in all the positions, that are very unique to those positions, and acquiring a greater understanding of those and having the opportunity to practice those on a more regular basis in game-like situations would lead me to believe that you have a better chance of developing at a higher level than perhaps someone who is playing five different positions and may not necessarily be able to acquire all the understanding and nuance that a certain position requires.
Speaker 2:At what age would you say then that if I am a nine-year-old, I should start being a nine-year-old right-sided center back versus a nine-year-old functional player and technical and tactical understanding generally?
Speaker 5:I don't know if it's nine, but it could be Again. I think it's down to the profile and the characteristics of that player and maybe they're not yet defined enough to put them in that situation. But maybe they are.
Speaker 4:I think when you're playing on a 77 or a 99 field, you should be playing like as many positions as possible for the most part, because when you change to U13, 11 v 11 size field it's completely different in many ways as far as like position specific.
Speaker 5:You think so?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 5:I think positionally, positionally, if you're coaching and you have something cohesive let's say you, ashley, being the brilliant coach and tactician that you are you start a team at the lowest level, whatever 5v5, the positional understanding and play translates throughout to 77 to 99, to 11 to 11. The game looks it should.
Speaker 4:Yeah, shouldn't it yeah. But I'm saying like the game looks it should yeah, shouldn't it yeah.
Speaker 4:But I'm saying like the game looks the same If you play an out, like if you play a left back, a six and a striker. As a nine-year-old, I don't think that's going to hinder your development when you go to an 11 v 11 field, because how you play an outside back a six or a nine as a nine-year-old is going to look different than when you're on a bigger field. Now you have more positions. Now there's like actual, like true formations and tactics more or less going into play totally disagree with you okay I think there's a translation between the two.
Speaker 5:The space is different. It's bigger space, so you have to cover more space there. You're right, there are more players on the field, but the form and function of your team and your structure and your probably your game model right and your principles right. It might get a little bit more complex, but I think the game looks the same. It should look the same.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think there's like it all flows together and like you go from, like you grow within the game and the principles grow as well. But I think to the I think Christian's question was does it hinder your development? I don't think hindering your I play multiple positions at a 99 was going to hinder your development into an 11 V 11 field.
Speaker 2:I thought he asked if it would help multiple positions at a 9v9 was going to hinder your development into an 11v11 field. I thought he asked if it would help. No, I think the question is just your opinion on that, because I know we have people listening to this podcast who are going to have a very, very strong opinion one way or the other, and it may not be right. What this discussion so far has indicated is there's a lot of gray area here, because if I tried to summarize what we're talking about here, I would say being an eight-year-old and saying you're a right-sided center back and that's all you're going to play and you're going to specialize as a right-sided center back starting at age eight, because I play in a 2-3-1 that's going to eventually turn into a 4-3-3. Those would be systems that would have similar relationships. I would say that is not a great thing. I would think that that eight-year-old would lose some context of decision-making and understanding by always being, for example, behind the ball and always looking at the game from deep.
Speaker 5:Would it help their decision-making from that position?
Speaker 2:Well, you could also say that it'll help their decision-making by playing in front of the ball as a midfielder or a forward, and understanding of the whole.
Speaker 2:But I understand your point, doug, because there's no such thing as the world-class versatile player Okay, because world-class at something, you're not world-class at everything I mean.
Speaker 2:And that doesn't mean that there's not value to the versatile player who can play in multiple positions, because there is because that player usually the stories about the value of that player come when there's injuries or there's problems and you need to have a quick solution. It's not because, man, I can't wait to have the most versatile players ever, because if I can get the best right back, the best center midfielder, the best center forward, that's what I want to do. I don't want to have the fifth best at all of those who can play in all of those. So somewhere along the development path you have to become an expert at a position, because that's going to differentiate you. But the question is, where does general learning, understanding principles, start to turn into specific learning and understanding of principles and actions of a position that's generally tied to certain type of receiving the ball, certain types of spaces you play in and certain types of relationships that demand certain types of techniques. Do you agree with?
Speaker 5:that statement Starting that process earlier.
Speaker 2:I think it's an evolution.
Speaker 5:Hinders their development.
Speaker 2:I don't know if there's a way to actually answer it directly or not, but if I had to err on one side or the other, I would err on providing a little bit more variety instead of less at the younger age group. So that's my personal opinion.
Speaker 5:That's probably what more, how I've done it, but I do think a lot about the idea of identifying players and their characteristics earlier in the process. I'm not going to say it's eight or nine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:And then trying to help them understand the nuance and the specifics of that.
Speaker 2:Your point, I think, if I hear you right and I agree with it is that there is real value to being an expert in a position and that the more you play a position, the better you're going to be at it, especially if you're intentional than if you don't. Ashley any different interpretation on that.
Speaker 4:No, I agree. I just think like if you're a really good six as a nine-year-old doesn't necessarily translate to being a very good six as a U15 player, and so, like, playing multiple positions at a younger age has its value.
Speaker 5:I agree with you. I'm going to push also and say just because you're a good six at 15 doesn't mean you're being a good six at 19. 100%, I think that is true all along the continuum of development.
Speaker 2:We can zoom that out and say say, just because you're good at nine doesn't mean you're going to be good at 15 either. So positions can be just a smaller circle within the Venn diagram.
Speaker 1:There's a natural transition to what we call profiling for players, as we profile their best attributes and how that might fit for them immediately and down the road. Christian, Ashley, Doug and even Reed will have a solid debate on profiling after this message.
Speaker 3:Soccercom is proud to partner with the ECNL to support the continued development of soccer in the US at the highest levels. We've been delivering quality soccer equipment and apparel to players, fans and coaches since 1984. Living and breathing the beautiful game ourselves. Our goal at Soccercom is to inspire you to play better, cheer louder and have more fun.
Speaker 1:Visit Soccercom today to check out our unmatched selection of gear, expert advice and stories of greatness at every level of the game welcome back to segment two of this week's edition of breaking the line, the ecnl podcast, where christian labors now pivots to profiling and creating profiles for each and every player on your team and how that breaks down the technical, tactical aspects of it and so much more. So to get things started once again, I turn it over to the president and CEO of the ECNL, christian Labors.
Speaker 2:Some people may understand this better than others, but the concept of a profile is that every position has a set of attributes that make you more likely to be successful in that position or that that position demands more so than other positions.
Speaker 2:That profile is technical, physical, tactical, mental or emotional, and I think those things may change over time in terms of what profile a player fits. For example, because if you develop early and have certain physical attributes that are really are above your peers at a young age but then diminish over time, that may impact the position that's best for you, then also some may be present early and stay. So I'd be curious your response to this. There are kids on an early basis that gravitate to the back or gravitate to the front, the kids that want to score goals and be one-on-one and creative selfish some may use that word, but they just want to go and they want to dribble and they want to score and some kids that want to sit back and sort of see the game and organize and are content to be a little bit more defensive. I think you see mental traits or mental perspectives early. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 5:I think you can. I think it's always incumbent upon us as coaches and I say this all the time to our coaches is, first of all, what is the timeline of our responsibility for a player? And that is their youth career, right? So in theory, you are ideally going to have a player at their peak as a youth player when they're 19, 18, right when they're leaving you. That's the hope, and so I think it's really important that we all can look at players for not only what they are, but what they can be, because that's our responsibility.
Speaker 5:Yes, some things can really appear in players early, whether that be emotional maturity, leadership, speed, strength or certain abilities, technically and tactically, that lend themselves to certain positions, and I think the real art in this and I do think it's an art is being able to recognize those things and get that player in a place where they can be most successful and teach them the things that they need to know in order to do those things, to perform that position at a high level. I think it's really important that we look at players and young players not just for what they are, but what they can be, and then you make somewhat of an investment in that. It doesn't mean you don't, you can't change, or you know some, you know something happens and you pivot or whatever. But I think in a lot of these situations instances you're making an investment in what you think a player can be and you're trying to cultivate the things that are important to you in a player that plays that position. Do you agree with that, or is that too idealistic?
Speaker 2:I think I look at it and I'll use an example or an analogy. It's not intended to be as probably direct as it sounds, but as sculpting. At an early age you're trying to teach general things and general principles and every kid is kind of similar in the sense that they're not strong, they're not powerful, they're not technically hugely differentiated the younger you go. Obviously, then, as a kid grows and develops, and what strikes me in this and this has been true in a lot of other topics we talk about it's so individual right, because kids mature at different times and rates. They improve at different times and rates, but as the player develops and shows more of maybe some internal characteristics that will lend themselves to moving into different profiles or different strengths and weaknesses. For some kids it might be younger than others, but it also begs the question of how do you nurture the special attributes and talents that may appear at different times throughout as well? Because a player that has a really confident risk-taking 1v1 mentality needs to be probably coached and managed differently than a player that doesn't have that mentality. One is not better than the other. They are different Because, for example, if you put a risk-taking 1v1, I want the ball and I want a dribble player at center back.
Speaker 2:You're probably not. And I want a dribble player at center back. You're probably not going to have a very good center back and if you put a organizing, risk-averse, solid, decision, possession-oriented player as a number nine, you're probably not going to score very many goals, right. So to me, to your point, it's looking at where is the player now, what are the general needs and as the specific needs positive, negative strengths, weaknesses start to appear. How do you manage that? Over time Because I think the goal would be at age 18, maybe a little bit earlier you have a player that is in the position that maximizes the strengths that they have, that are inherent, and minimizes the weaknesses they have, so they have the best chance to be successful long-term in the 11-a-side game.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean it would be irresponsible, I think, as a coach, to try to take away or not encourage and cultivate what we all call superpowers or super strengths that players have. I think that's also part of our responsibility. What do these players do really really well and what makes them different or special, and how do we lean into that or have them lean into that? That's part of our responsibility as a coach. For sure, we all will see the game in a different way and maybe we all think this. We don't all think a center back necessarily has to play the same way, right? Some people might think differently than you, or I think it's important to know what you want and what you think that player needs to be able to do to be successful and be very intentional about how you teach the player those things. But I do agree with you about those super kind of strengths of players and that we lean into them and some of them absolutely will relate to certain positions more than others.
Speaker 2:Let's put it in context. Ashley, what positions can you give us the 20,000-footed?
Speaker 4:I played left wing until sophomore junior year of high school and for the very first time Jay Howell threw me at left back and then I left that team mid-season of that year and I was a striker and then in college and pre-season I was converted to a left back and I was a left backback, starting left-back, all four years of college.
Speaker 2:So you were a wide player, predominantly sometimes in the back, sometimes in the front. Now a couple of interesting things to that right. First of all, being left-footed, which is, I think, a blessing for a soccer player, because there's not a lot of left-footed players, and so when we go back to the profile, there's a lot of people. And again go back to the profile, there's a lot of people. And again you can create a profile to match the way you want to play. Okay, so there's going to be different profiles based on your vision of the game, but generally one.
Speaker 2:If I'm going to speak generally, a left-footed left back is a highly desirable player, more than a right-footed left back, because the left-footed left back naturally opens up to the left down the line and can play balls that are less risky than the right-footed left back, who always cuts inside onto their dominant foot and looks to play into, in theory, tighter central spaces because they don't want to go out to the left side. Similarly, if you go that into the attacking third, you can discuss the difference between inverted wingers and not. But a left-footed player gets to the end line with more probably accurate and better left-footed crosses than a right-footed left wing. But if you play with inverted wingers and maybe you don't want to get to the end line, it's not as important, but that is one, I think, interesting example that would have been unique to you and your development. You probably played on the left side almost the entire time because of the fact that you were left footed.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think I can probably count a handful of times going off the right, but it was with the sole purpose of being able to cut in and strike a ball with my left foot on frame. I was a fast left-footed player. I was obviously going to play in the back, in my opinion. Looking back now, I hated it when it happened. I was like I can't play in the back. I know nothing about the back. I was called the pretender defender in film in college and I'll never forget it. I was like I've been playing this position for like three days.
Speaker 2:That's a funny comment as well, because let's talk about defenders because very few parents put yourself on the eight-year-old sideline, the 10-year-old sideline. Very few parents are like I'm so happy my kid is playing left back or center back Because, again wrongly, they all think well, they need to be center forward or center midfielder but ironically, the younger you are, the players in the back actually get the ball a heck of a lot more than the players up front most of the time in youth soccer, especially if you're trying to build out right. So the backs will actually touch the ball a lot more than the forward at a 7v7 average U8 game. But then you have this perception of well, if my kid's in the back, well, they must not be good enough to be in the front. And you look and say some of the best players in all of soccer history are outside backs who are there so that they can go forward. They're actually not there to defend predominantly they have to do some of that but they're there to attack from deeper spaces and to get up the line.
Speaker 4:I think that's why so many wingers are converted is because you naturally then have the mentality of wanting to attack, so you're just going to bomb forward the entire game, which is why so many coaches convert players.
Speaker 5:I think the key here is to me, one part for coaches and one part for parents is one as a coach, you should have these profiles and be able to articulate them, and then to that. Point two is you should communicate. I look at this as there are stakeholders in the game, and at the youth level the stakeholders are the coach, the players and the parents. Whether you like that or you don't like it is immaterial. The parents are part of the process and they're an important part of the process, and so I find that the more you communicate what you're doing and why you're doing it, the more support you have for doing it, and I think Ashley does it well and can really excel at it and be a very high level player. Then I explain to her what I think, what is required for that. Those are the profiles and what I see in her. And then I get the other stakeholder, who is the parents, and I say here's what I see and why I think it would be good for her to do.
Speaker 5:This Part of our challenge is as coaches in the youth game. Sometimes maybe we think we don't have to communicate with parents, that parents are better to be, as I heard when I was a child better to be seen and not heard, but maybe it's the opposite. Maybe the more you inform that stakeholder, then maybe that alleviates some of the things that you're talking about christian, where people say well, why am I playing left back, why is she only playing left back, or whatever?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think everybody feels better and is more likely to be bought in if they think there's a plan or they know the plan or that there's a reason for it. I go back to now, tie this back to the playing different positions at certain ages because again, go to profiles If you're playing in the back, generally you're going to receive the ball facing forward. There's not a lot of times that a center back receives a ball back to goal and has to turn under pressure. If you are playing in midfield, you receive the ball from 360 degrees and you have to be able to play in 360 degrees. Those are very different perceptual skills, technical skills, decision-making skills, and so ultimately, that's one of the reasons why you can say a similar thing in a wide space.
Speaker 2:We're speaking in generalities here, of course, but generally there's more space in the wide areas than there is in the middle of the field. So if you play wide your entire career, you face less constraints on average of receiving in tight spaces because there's generally going to be more spaces. There's also more ability to use physical attributes like speed in the wide space than there is in the central space on average, right. So having a player, even if you look at a player and say, listen, they have the profile I see more and more clearly over time of a wide player. There may be, if you're thinking long-term value to putting that player into a central space every now and then to force them to learn some of those skills or get better at some of those things that are not so prevalent at a wide space but are still going to be helpful periodically. Does that make sense?
Speaker 5:But can't you solve that in your training environment?
Speaker 2:If you're intentional.
Speaker 5:I think that's my point is I don't necessarily agree that we have to manufacture experiences by playing people in a different position.
Speaker 2:If you're training environment is integrated that way.
Speaker 2:I would agree with that.
Speaker 2:I kind of look at it this way Early on, and let's take away the very, very youngest ages, because I just think it's really hard At those ages.
Speaker 2:It's about ball manipulation, basic understanding of 1v1 in space, and you kill space defensively, you make space in an attack, that sort of stuff. But the first step I think in looking at profiles of long term because I think we're always trying to figure out where is this player best now, where are they going to be best long term is looking at they're either sort of attacking minded or defensive minded and they're either more central type players or more wide type players. I don't look at it as like right back versus right wing. I say it's sort of you're a wide-ish type player for the physical profile, the technical profile, and then you may have more inclinations to go forward and more to defend and then as the player continues to grow and develop, that may change. But it also may become. Now you become more clearly a wide player in the attacking space, whether that's a right wing or a right midfielder or whatever it may be. That's how I kind of look at the evolution of a position.
Speaker 5:And where's the line of delineation on age that we're making, because you said they're really young ages. So let's define what those lines are.
Speaker 2:I'll push back on that to something you've said in other podcasts is it's very, very individual, because some of the kids are going to be more mentally and emotionally mature, they're going to be more technically developed earlier than others. But I think that's kind of your point is, as the player shows more of who they are, it's easier to decide where is the profile that this player is going to be. I mean it go all the way back to the beginning. A player on day one who's never kicked a soccer ball before, we don't know anything about right now. As the player starts to show they're very good in this area, they're average in this area, they're weak in other areas, whether that's physically or technically, or an understanding that sort of starts to allow you to pivot your intervention with that player and positions that you put that player in it's a good non-answer.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it was a non-answer. I'm going to use a really horrible example, so I'll apologize ahead of time for this horrible example. But, let's say you go on and you watch Barcelona's U10s play. What's that going to look like?
Speaker 2:Very different than U10s in most of the Americas.
Speaker 5:Okay, that is accurate. I don't want to compare, but they still are nine-year-olds or 10-year-olds, right?
Speaker 2:And, by the way, I think we both have seen Barcelona's U10s at one point.
Speaker 5:Yes, and what I'll say is let's not underestimate what we could do if we were intentional about it. Now Barcelona has the pick of a lot of the best players and that kind of stuff, but I think sometimes and again, this is going down another road. You can agree or disagree. I think sometimes we underestimate what we can do with young players.
Speaker 2:I would definitely agree with that and actually, the first time I saw Barcelona's U8s and U10s play, I was astounded by the quality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it was just it's, and I think, by the way, this country's got a lot better. But if we went over and watched Barcelona's U10s today, we'd probably still be saying, wow, there's still a giant gap. But I think that also highlights the fact that, again, it's individual, highlights the fact that again, it's individual players that are more mature and developed, are ready to do things that players that are not are not ready to do. In terms of expectation, in terms of maybe even position specific, if you add, because I know people like bright lines by age 13, 14, I think you need to be very clearly in a position where you're generally a wide player or a center player. You're generally more defensive or attacking.
Speaker 2:For example, I would look at most U13, u14, and let's say, you're starting at right back on this day, I would like to think a 13-year-old who's playing right back on this game would be able to play right midfield pretty effectively, would be able to be a right-sided center back fairly effectively, could go into a center midfield maybe for, you know, for a pinch. But you know you're, you're moving around. You're not going from right back to left wing, to number nine, you're kind of in a core couple of positions 13 and 14.
Speaker 2:I think that's when it starts. Now again, somebody can change dramatically. But if, if, if you're 13 and 14, and I can't figure out where to play you at all, then I would wonder whether there's some serious development issues of like I can't figure out where to play you because you don't fit any profile, because you don't have strengths that are clear enough in any of these areas. I mean, ashley, you're laughing, but tell me what you think.
Speaker 4:It's completely fair. But you're saying that at 13, 14, it's more of like right back, right side, center back, right wing, maybe the six, instead of being like outside players and central players, you think at 13, 14, that's kind of plays out.
Speaker 2:No kind of. But I guess I look at it and say you know, in football they say it's blocking and tackling right, and in soccer it's passing and receiving, which you're going to receive in a slightly different body orientation, a slightly different part of the field, you know, with slightly different positional relationships around you in each one of those positions. But it's not night and day. So receiving as a right back versus receiving as a nine, that's night and day. Receiving as a right back versus receiving as a right winger, or receiving as a right midfielder and a diamond. There are variations on a theme, for sure. But I just look to start to say all of those build on each other in learning. If you play right back and then you play right midfield, well, right midfield you're going to receive the ball and have to turn more under pressure than you are right back. That's probably good for you as a right-sided player.
Speaker 5:So again, I think that you again underestimate the age in which you can start doing what you're talking about. I think it has to be younger. I'm not saying there are no players at 13 and 14. That will be kind of in the gray area some way, because we're all limited by the pool of players that we have. Probably we get new players, we lose, but kids decide to go play volleyball. I don't know. I think you're underestimating the time when you can start to do that.
Speaker 2:I will agree with you, with the caveat that the more developed the player is, the earlier you can do these types of things.
Speaker 5:Or the earlier you develop them to start to do these kinds of things, the more they're going to be able to do these kinds of things.
Speaker 2:So now we're going chicken and the egg. Chicken and the egg. I guess I guess, ashley, what do you think? I agree.
Speaker 4:I guess I just what do you think? I agree, I guess I just look at it.
Speaker 5:She's rethinking her whole coaching philosophy right now.
Speaker 4:No, I'm thinking about how many parents are about to come from my head. Depending upon how I answer, I look at it a little bit different. I think like a 6, 8, and 10 can usually all play a 6, 8, or 10. Outside backs Might be better at one than the other, by the way, and ten can usually all play a six, eight or ten Outside backs.
Speaker 2:Might be better at one than the other, by the way, but they can generally play all of them.
Speaker 4:Center backs can probably figure out a six pretty easily. I don't think they're playing on the wing anytime soon.
Speaker 2:Agree with that.
Speaker 4:Seven and elevens can probably figure out a nine. Nine can probably figure out a seven and eleven, but it's not going to be the prettiest thing. Nine and probably figure out a 7-11, but it's not going to be the prettiest thing. 9-10 kind of interchanging, but an outside back is not going to go be a world beater out of 10, in my opinion and I feel like Doug's about to come from-.
Speaker 2:I totally agree with everything you said, sir.
Speaker 5:Yeah, no, listen, I think there's a lot of reality to what you're saying, but I wish we would not live in that and use that as an excuse or a crutch and not put forth a plan that prepares players to be really good at what they're doing.
Speaker 5:We can push ourselves in the way we think about the game and how we teach the game and when we can teach the game a little bit more idealistically, especially when the kids are younger. I will agree with you that there are some real realities to what we do and when the kids come and go, and all that. If we had a plan that we can really articulate and that we really consider in a very idealistic way because I think when you're dealing with young players, that's the way you should look at it I think you should ask yourself what do I want this to look like when I'm done or along the way, and that's the way I think you should approach it. And then we deal with the realities that are there for us. But I think if we put a plan together and that plan was very idealistic, based on how we think, what the profiles of players are and how we want to play the game, we probably would be a lot better development if we did it that way, instead leaning and on the realities and not thinking idealistically.
Speaker 2:Well, let's add one piece to that, because I'll take that and I'll say that I think every player should have a position that you feel like is going to be their best position, and it may be not by much over a different position, and it may be clearly this is your best position.
Speaker 2:But the other reality if we want to talk about that a lot of players end up changing that position based on the level of play. Now, you normally don't move up the field. You don't normally go from center back at a lower level to center midfielder at a higher level, but you do move back down the field. So you might be a winger at one level, you go to a higher level and you're an outside back, and the reality is that's because there's somebody who's better than you in the attacking phase of the game. That's why you move back. But I think that's also incumbent on players, coaches, parents is that while you may say this is where I think I am best, you need to also have the tools and the mental flexibility to play in a different position or you are putting an artificial cap on your own career.
Speaker 5:Those are the realities. As you get towards the end of the youth soccer road or to your point, you leave a level and you step up a level. Those are realities Totally agree with that.
Speaker 2:I mean you see this a lot right. I mean, put this in context. You got kids. I think we all could say, have names, come to your mind. Right now you have a kid who joins the ECNL and they used to score a lot of goals at whatever level was not the ECNL. And then they come to the ECNL and they're not scoring goals and the reality is that they may not ever be scoring a lot of goals anymore at this level, because what made them successful in that endeavor at a lower level they're just not going to be able to do because of the demands are so much higher. Maybe some of them they will eventually be able to as their game catches up to the level.
Speaker 2:But I think that's also. You know, that player who is good enough to step up a level needs to be flexible enough to know that stepping up a level may mean a different profile for them. They need to be determined enough to know that stepping up a level means you're probably going to have to improve a lot of different things, and the coaches also have to, and parents have to understand that, because you do see, a lot of people is you know? Hey, I used to score goals all the time. Now, I'm not. It must be something. Well, yeah, the the something is the levels higher and it's going to be harder for you to do that and maybe, especially as you get older, maybe you're not going to be able to to do what you did at the previous level at this level, and you need to understand that.
Speaker 5:No question about it. I think that's later in the process. Probably you guys would agree with that. Would you agree that a lot of the how to stuff happens earlier and then you get to a point where you know, obviously you're older and you're in that kind of we talk about that performance phase, right, and it's not that you're not learning or getting better understanding things tactically, but the how to is a little bit in the rear view mirror right.
Speaker 2:The passing and receiving, yeah, Well, yeah, I'll take another, yeah, I'll take another one that I'll take your side on, you know. And let's use again generally if generally, club soccer is a higher level than high school soccer and you're a junior and you are a right winger in club soccer, because that's where you fit and that's where people see you fitting as you go older, going into high school and playing center midfield, Does that make you better long term? Or would be playing right winger at a higher level make you better long term?
Speaker 5:B, but there are factors involved that we could talk about, because there's nuance to it.
Speaker 2:I would generally lean with B as well, because I think what happens as you get older, by the way, is that you go in and do things that you are able to do at lower levels, that you are not able to do at the level that you're expecting to play on, and it doesn't help. You get better at the things that you need to be really good at at your position, that you're playing at a higher level. Ashley, you look very contemplative.
Speaker 4:Oh no, I'm just imagining myself having to like play the six and it's stressing me out. I would be so bad as a six. But no, that was just my own thought process. I agree with that. I would agree with you guys.
Speaker 5:Depends on the level you'd be playing at Ashley. There's a level out there where you'd be fine at the six.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, I'm just like thinking in general, like laughing at myself, thinking like playing a six ever, or a 10. I'd be like, oh God, like a lower level, I'd be like high school, I'd be completely fine, but like as a club player or college player.
Speaker 2:Oh God. So this is the nuances of development, right? Because if you're a high level, wide player, that's usually because you're great One V one. You got some pace to you.
Speaker 4:Maybe your you got some pace to you. Maybe your first touch isn't the tightest and cleanest. You know your ability to wiggle around in the middle.
Speaker 2:I had a great touch. Okay, well, generally, if we had to be speaking generally, the players in the middle of the field are going to be a little tighter.
Speaker 5:I know, I know, I know just they're gonna.
Speaker 2:They're gonna be better in these tight spaces of twisting and turning and connecting. But going into that position isn't necessarily going to make you better for when you get back out into a wide position, when the level is lower. So just because you can, because the level is lower doesn't mean you should, and I think that's really really misunderstood to some level. The higher the level you go, the more the demands are to do it faster and cleaner Right, faster and cleaner. Faster and cleaner. Decision execution action.
Speaker 5:And how do you do it faster and cleaner? By doing it more.
Speaker 2:That's right and context.
Speaker 5:Correct, and so I think that's my point as well about this position, specialization argument, that we're not argument but debate we're having. I think the main thing I would want to say is that at the young ages, don't underestimate what you can do with players and be idealistic about what you're doing with them, because it's basically it's a blank canvas, right.
Speaker 2:I would agree with that and I would add, at the older ages, become really, really good at one position, with the flexibility to do other things if needed, if required, if adjusting to get on the field means playing a different position, but become an expert in a position, but not the expert who says I don't play anywhere else because that expert tends to not be an expert by default.
Speaker 5:It is so nuanced and so open to. I mean, there's no one size fits all in all this. In my early years, I mean, I grew up and I played basketball a lot and soccer and when I got into coaching, I had an opportunity to get into coaching basketball or coaching soccer and I chose soccer and one of the reasons I chose it is because of how gray it is and how much we can look at it so differently and how many different decisions can be made with a good outcome in any one single moment. So, but all these things are nuanced. Hopefully, if you're a parent and you're listening to this, your kid is being coached by somebody who has a plan and an idea of what they're trying to do for long-term development and they communicate it to you and you buy it. If you're a coach and you're listening to this, have a plan.
Speaker 2:And tweak the plan, because no plan survives first contact.
Speaker 5:Sure and communicate what you're doing and, whether you like it or not, parents are stakeholders. It's a fact, so don't fight it.
Speaker 2:This has probably been the most soccer theory or developmental theory we've had in a podcast in a long time. Theory might be a little bit of ambitious word, we'll see. We'll see what the response is. Reid is sitting here, not being a soccer player, not sure what his response is, but he's going to get in on the brackacken brain buster.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and I'll just add to this Christian, these are our opinions. We've all kind of been doing this for a while. These are our opinions. It's not the ECNL telling you this is what you should do.
Speaker 2:If you want to yell about it, then I'm going to say okay, man, whatever you want, yeah, so okay, it depends it depends, doug. Everything depends, everything depends.
Speaker 1:One final break and then, indeed, we will go to Doug Bracken and Bracken's Brain Buster. That comes after this message from an ECNL corporate partner.
Speaker 3:From athletes just starting to turn heads to some of the best athletes to ever play their games, gatorade shows that they are the proven fuel of the best. For the athletes who give everything, nothing beats Gatorade, the studied, tested and proven fuel of the ECNL.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to the third and final segment of Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast, where we feature Doug Bracken and the Bracken Brain. Buster and Christian. Ask Doug right away who's going to go first.
Speaker 2:Are we going to put Reed first? Is he going to be on the hot seat right away?
Speaker 5:I think so. He's a young guy, he's just starting out in his life as an adult, and so, reed, are you going to take that.
Speaker 2:I mean, you just graduated, but I don't know if he's just starting out as an adult. Reed, what you got to say about that, let's say that's a valid statement.
Speaker 6:I mean, I'm figuring my way out through life All right, you're adulting for the first time.
Speaker 5:So Reed probably has, maybe has less to offer on this particular question, but I'm going to ask, so I'm wrong.
Speaker 2:I'm wrong.
Speaker 5:Christian is going to hate this question, so this is why I'm doing it. Reid, what is?
Speaker 4:the best pair of shoes you have in your closet.
Speaker 6:Oh my, gosh, call them out. Best pair of shoes Sponsored by Nike. I want to say it's the Nike Pegasus Turbos, specifically the black and white. I cannot say enough good things about them. Clean, look, you know. Comfortable. Because, again, like as a videographer, I guess we're all like you know out at these events or just like in everyday life, like I'll look at my watch at the end of the day, like sometimes I'll have like almost 20 000 steps and I never have sore feet like this is like a regular advertisement right here.
Speaker 5:I'm going to tell you this right now Reed over-delivered right there. He was very sure of himself. He had his facts and his reasoning behind it.
Speaker 2:Respect. Well played, reed. Well played, well played, we give you that, thank you.
Speaker 6:Can't say enough good things about him, would 10 out of 10 recommend.
Speaker 4:Are those the shoes that you passed your walking class in in college?
Speaker 6:yes, it is great you had a walking class online walking. I did that is online.
Speaker 2:Wow, even better I'm gonna leave that one alone right there for a future podcast. I always do this to ashley when somebody I can't imagine why the college degree value is changing online walk.
Speaker 5:Ashley loves it when somebody gives a really good answer and then I make her go next.
Speaker 4:So I'm gonna go with Ashley probably my Nike vapor flies the running shoes. They're so comfortable to run in, so I would just say those, keep it simple.
Speaker 5:So Ashley, flexing that she runs, I mean Trying to one up read who walks pretty savage thing to do on reads first podcast.
Speaker 4:Okay, he can handle it.
Speaker 2:Ray, did you have an online running class too, or was that like not?
Speaker 6:No, I'm not advanced enough for that, so All right.
Speaker 4:Graduate students only yeah.
Speaker 6:You got to take walking as a prereq.
Speaker 5:Well played, all right Labors. As much as I've tried, I'm not a shoe guy.
Speaker 2:You know that If you were answering for me, you'd say hey man, you got a pair of Travis Scotts.
Speaker 5:No, the shoes I've always seen you the most in is those 270s.
Speaker 2:See, I don't even know. Oh, the 270s. I do like the 270s, that's what I'm going to go with. I got a white pair and a black pair. I like the 270s. That's it. I'm going to stop talking because I don't even know the names of the other ones.
Speaker 5:So Nike 270s, that's Christian. Okay, I'm pretty deep in the shoes. It's actually embarrassing. But 100 jordan threes best ever super comfortable, very stylish, lots of colorways. So I'm gonna go jordan, jordan threes. I particularly like the elephant print jordan threes. But those, you know, those only come out for special occasions. Gotta keep them crispy. And then, I guess, last but not least, it's probably dean's wife's got a pair of shoes that he really likes, so that's what he's going to say.
Speaker 2:So dean's going to say like floor shine, so that's right that's right, or penny.
Speaker 1:So, dean, best pair of shoes in your closet, my friend since the barbs are flying, I will fire one back and say that this is the worst brackens brain buster we've had so far. I think of shoes the way I think of pens, where I really put no value on them. But to answer the question which is required, it's sandals on Bald Head Island. That simple. All the other shoes could care less. Sandals on Bald Head Island.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, that is a wide-ranging discussion on positions and development and profiling, and we'll see what people think about it. If this one hits hard like the last one did, then I think the answer that we need to get into is, like, whatever people are complaining about on the sidelines and talking about on the sidelines and criticizing coaches on the sidelines, that's what we need to talk about. If this one bombs, then we know that we got into the weeds.
Speaker 1:So let us hear from you, let us know what you're thinking of breaking the line the ecnl podcast, this topic, other topics and so much more. I want to thank christian ashley, d Doug and Reed for each and every one of them and all of you, as well as my producer, Colin Thrash. I'm Dean Linke. We'll see you in two weeks for another edition of Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast. Thank you for listening to Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast and remember, if you have a question that you want answered on Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast, email us at info at the ECNL dot com.