Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
The Elite Clubs National League was founded in 2009 and continues to lead by daring to do things differently, embedded with grit, collaboration and tenacity – all things learned from the beautiful game. The ECNL protects and propels the integrity of the game and everyone it impacts by facilitating the perfect symmetry of excellence and humility, exclusivity and accessibility, freedom and community. We believe that challenging everyone to rise to their best creates game-changers that live well, long after cleats are unlaced. Born out of the belief in a better way. Continued in the ever-evolving pursuit of excellence.
Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
Why Are We Like This: A Brief History of the US Soccer Federation, Birth Year Regulations and ECNL Alums Drafted into MLS | Ep. 110
Let us know the topics of interest to you!
The first Breaking the Line episode of 2025 features special guest Mike Cullina, CEO of US Club Soccer.
Cullina and the Breaking the Line crew open the episode with a topic on the forefront of everyone's minds: birth year regulations. The three provide an update to the discussion about what comes next for clubs and leagues regarding roster cutoff dates for birth year, why that decision was made, what does it mean for players and clubs and when will those changes be made.
That discussion evolves into a discussion into where US Club Soccer fits as a whole within the US soccer ecosystem, and why the American soccer ecosystem differs from other countries. The Breaking the Line team goes into how the US Soccer Federation was founded more than 100 years ago and how the organization operated in the past has led us to the decisions and conversations we're having today.
Finally, the group closes out the podcast recognizing the 20 ECNL alumni from 18 different clubs who were selected in the 2025 MLS SuperDraft on their incredible achievements. Congrats!
As always, if there you have any questions or topics of discussion for Breaking the Line, submit your questions here: ecnl.info/BTL-Questions.
Welcome to the January 8th edition of Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast, where the leaders of the ECNL cover issues that are important to you. On today's show, ECNL President and CEO, Christian Labors, ECNL VP and Chief of Staff, Doug Bracken, and even our producer, Jacob Bourne, welcome the talented CEO of US Club Soccer, Mike Cullinan. The talented CEO of US Club Soccer, Mike Cullinan. Mr Cullinan gives his take on the birth year school year debate, highlights the enormity of youth soccer in this country and tells us about some exciting new hires at US Club Soccer. The crew also takes a look at the growing strength of ECNL boys represented in the most recent Major League Soccer Super Draft and, as always, Doug Bracken poses a very reflective question as we charge into 2025 with unprecedented growth and momentum. It's a great show and the January 8, 2025 edition of Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast will get started after this message from Nike.
Speaker 2:Nike is a proud sponsor of ECNL. Nothing can stop what we can do together to bring positive change to our communities. You can't stop sport because hashtag. You can't stop our voices. Follow Nike on Instagram, facebook and Twitter.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast. As you just heard, a very special guest, the top man for US club soccer and a longtime friend to the ECNL, Mike Cullinan, on the show with our two superstars, Doug Bracken, the VP, and Christian Labors, the president and CEO. I turn it over to Christian.
Speaker 3:Appreciate it, Dean, and happy 2025 to everybody.
Speaker 4:Thank you, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Mike, appreciate having you on the podcast, so maybe let's just start with a little bit of. Let's do like the 30 second version of your background. You're obviously right now the CEO of US Club Soccer and on the US Soccer Board of Directors through that position, so maybe give us a sense of your background that got you into US Club in the high points.
Speaker 5:I guess I'll start backwards. You know, when Kevin Payne decided to retire back in 2020, going into 2021, I happened to be chair of the board of US Club at the time and he and others came to me and asked me if I'd be interested in making that transition. So I did. Previous to that, I was at a club in Virginia called Prince William Soccer, where we founded, collaboratively with a partner club, the Virginia Development Academy, which I know is a very strong club now in the East.
Speaker 5:It wasn't without a heavy lift when we joined back at that time and then before that, I actually was with Doug and Tim out at Ohio elite and had a wonderful time, uh, there in Cincinnati, a place that, uh, my kids still miss dearly. So been in the club, game, coach, director, all the above, and, yeah, it was just right place, right time, I suppose, and came over in 2021. And I've loved it. It's a wonderful team, a tremendous team, and obviously we have a couple hundred leagues. The ECNL is one of them and a strong, strong partner of ours. That's kind of the quick and dirty of it.
Speaker 4:He's definitely advanced himself past the slumming of the Ohio League days, but we did enjoy that five years together. It was great.
Speaker 5:I wouldn't undersell the opportunity to work with you and Tim and how no, seriously, you guys, you're very different, but you're very similar in terms of your motivations and your energy and the way that you guys think. Having a chance to watch that we're working for you guys was was a tremendous advancement for me, and so I so you know and I mean that sincerely it was wonderful to work with you guys.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you for saying that Doug, just shut up for a while and take a comment.
Speaker 4:I know right. I'm not going to talk the rest of the podcast now.
Speaker 3:Previous to that, just because I think it will be relevant later in the conversation. You were a US Youth Soccer State DOC correct.
Speaker 5:I was. I was with Nebraska for a period of time in the early 2000s, you know, I think that that was a job that I really enjoyed. But where I was in my career I wanted to be more on the field and more involved in the game and working with players more day to day than I got to do. That's probably more of a job for now than then, but I did enjoy working and yeah, I think I did 13, 14 years in the regional staff with ODP and I enjoyed that time very much.
Speaker 4:How do you think your time in the club game and doing that stuff kind of prepared you for what you're doing now, Because it's different obviously.
Speaker 5:I think it was vital, I think it was essential. I think it was essential. I think what we've been able to do the last couple of years here at US Club Soccer and working with all of our leagues and building the teams that we've built, having those experiences and understanding it from the club perspective, from the parent perspective whether you're running tournaments or running clubs or running leagues, working with players more specifically and understanding kind of what are the value props that we could provide from the US club standpoint that allows our clubs and leagues to grow and flourish and develop players more specifically. Having that experience, I don't think, I think it'd be very difficult to be successful in these roles without having lived it, breathed it, feeled it. You know, when I listened to your podcast, it resonates because I was there, I understand it, I speak that language and yeah. So I just don't think we would be as successful as a team if I hadn't had those those experiences.
Speaker 5:And that's what I was saying before, doug, about working with you guys is just being in that arena before, doug, about working with you guys is just being in that arena. You get it, you understand and you know all of the evolution of the youth game. You know, going back now we're almost 20 years and how it has evolved, how it has changed, how it's constantly changing and how quickly it's changing. I think what we've been able to do is pivot from a reaction to what is being presented to driving that change, to being on the front foot, to bringing folks along with us, as I think we want the game to be in a different place. And then, of course, the relationships. Right, you just get to know people, who are decision makers, who are influencers. You know who to call, when to call, what to call about.
Speaker 1:Absolutely vital influencers. You know who to call, when to call, what to call about. Absolutely vital big time guest on this week's edition of breaking the line, the ecnl podcast, mike colina, the ceo of us club soccer.
Speaker 2:We will tackle the first topic after this message from another ecnl corporate partner soccercom is proud to partner with the ecNL to support the continued development of soccer in the US at the highest levels. We've been delivering quality soccer equipment and apparel to players, fans and coaches since 1984. Living and breathing the beautiful game ourselves. Our goal at Soccercom is to inspire you to play better, cheer louder and have more fun.
Speaker 1:Visit Soccercom today to check out our unmatched selection of gear expert advice and stories of greatness at every level of the game. Welcome back to Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast. Once again, here's Christian Labors.
Speaker 3:All right. Well, let's go to our first topic here, the much maligned birth year, school year registration decision, the decision that seems to constantly need more decisions and more time for more research on more decisions and more discussions about decisions until there's a decision, and then there's memos about decisions and then there's a decision that is not fully a decision, but is it a postponement of a decision? And I think actually everything I just said there is accurate.
Speaker 4:Mike, you haven't fielded any questions about this, I'm certain.
Speaker 5:Couple and I thank you guys for bringing this out in the summer and one of your podcasts and taking what was a conversation maybe more behind the scenes and putting it on the forefront and in people's minds, and I think it was important so that people knew and understood, because, as you have alluded to or just flat out said, the last time these decisions were made, they were made in a closed room where none of us had any idea it was coming, and then we tried to prevent it. We didn't think it was the right thing to do, we were ignored. But it also helped us craft and I and I I appreciate what you're saying, christian. You know putting on both the US club hat and the and the Federation hat. I think the work that the Federation team has done here has been absolutely fantastic and I and it is easy to the question I'm getting now is why don't they just mandate it? Why don't they just tell us what to do? Well, before we go there, mike, let's sort of back up.
Speaker 3:So the discussion to make this change from January 1 to a school year, a more school year-aligned date the discussion started months ago heated. Up. For a while it looked like that decision would be made for the fall of 2025, which would mean the next tryout cycle. There was some pushback on that from even people who thought the decision should be made. They thought the timing might be a little bit quick. There were some who debate, for some reason, the decision in the first place, but ultimately then it went to the Federation, because there's some argument about what authority does the federation have on this and there was also a desire by most organizations to try and align so you don't have people caught between different dates with different organizations. So there's a federation meeting.
Speaker 5:out of the federation meeting comes a memo a collaborative memo with US Club, us Youth, a bunch of other organizations in youth soccer. That says what we will all make the same decision. What it does say is that we will consult with one another, we'll collaborate with one another and we'll work together to not weaponize whatever decisions are made. I think that it is fair to say that US club soccer and US youth soccer and AYSO will be aligned in the decision and the dates. I think that that's the most likely scenario. We're committed to that. I believe that USU Soccer and AYSO are also committed to that. But there'll be other organizations that are aligned with us and whatever dates we choose, basically, what it says is that we need to allow at the most local level and this is from the federation standpoint, at the most local level clubs, leagues and operators to make the best decision for their membership and understanding that if there is not uniformity across our continent, that there will be issues that we have to mitigate.
Speaker 5:But we have smart enough people who can figure it out, who can do what's best for the majority of the people. The majority of the time, and in the instances where you may cross pollinate I go to a particular tournament and I'm on a birth year calendar or I'm on a school year registration cycle, whatever it is. Those groups can figure that out. They can attend those events and change their rosters or whatever. So that's where we are now. But so that's where we are now. Basically, what the Federation had was an action by board that mandated calendar year registration. Right, it mandated it.
Speaker 3:So all every league in the country who's never changed was in violation, direct violation of Federation policy by board action, and so we needed to change that, because that which is kind of like jaywalking, it's a crime, but you're probably not going to get in trouble for it.
Speaker 5:Well, you're 100% not going to get in trouble for it, because this is 2017 to 2024, and there is no birth of your police right. So to your point. But that's what the memo says. That's what the memo says is that the membership itself can make decisions. We at US Club will work with our leagues to help make those decisions and the best for the most amount of players.
Speaker 3:But those decisions- then will go back to the member organizations. A few clarifications to add to that. One is a recognition that the wherever the date is set for your registration, it has no impact on level of play, aspiration of level of play, development of those players in any direct aspect. So any any attempt. And then when we talk about weaponizing, it's talking about saying, well, if you play in a league with this registration, it means you have this level of aspiration versus this registration. So there's an attempt to get ahead of that and prevent any nefarious attempts to play with registration dates as a reason to go play one place or another. Correct, okay.
Speaker 3:Then the second one is saying this change and the change in the board policy will take place in the fall of 2026. Right, so that there's plenty of time for all these conversations and alignments to happen. But there's recognition that there may be different choices made for various reasons on on how people align, but there's plenty of time to sort that out. And then the last thing I want to talk about is because I think there's been some confusion on this. When we talk about a school year registration, what that actually means is a date that is more aligned with the school year cutoff dates that are determined by the different states as to when kids must be in school by law, based on when they turn a certain age by a certain date, which, to be fair across our 50 states, we don't have one date. We have a variety of different dates set by different states as to when you determine the year that a kid needs to be in school. Correct?
Speaker 5:Correct. There are states that have January 1 as their school right. They enter kindergarten based upon a January 1 birth date. I would say a majority of the states are in and around the September 1 date, which is why, you know, our thinking has shifted. Thinking has shifted Back to what you had said before, christian, I think early in the fall we would have expected that August 1 would be the date and implemented for the fall of 25.
Speaker 3:Which August 1 was what it was prior to the shift to January 1.
Speaker 5:So it would be almost returned to the past. Exactly right. The more we dug in, the more data we collected from clubs, from leagues, from member organizations, or just picking up the phone and talking to folks. Looking at the UK model that uses September 1, we started to think well, if we're trying to solve the riddle of the trapped player, september 1 may make more sense, and so you know that will necessarily create the opposite.
Speaker 5:And so you know that all of these peak times right, the U11 transition, the U13 transition, the U15, which is a big one, and the U19, which was a big one those were all affected by this change. So that's where we are now, and so we'll have conversations as a group between now and the US Soccer AGM, which is at the end of February, and shortly thereafter we'll launch a website on US Soccer that we'll point everybody to, that will have a lot of questions, a lot of answers, a lot of information, and that we will then start to populate decisions that are made. The US Club Board will meet in February, us YS Board will meet, all of those things. So I think by the time we get to March we'll generally know what folks are doing for the fall of 26.
Speaker 3:So to be clear and really put a bow on this. There is no magic date that solves developmental issues because the date doesn't have anything to do with development. Beyond the relative age effect issue, which is true to whatever date you pick, there will be an RAE impact. But, second of all, there is no date that is a magic date that eliminates every track player, and part of that is because every state in our constitutional republic has the ability to set their own state law about school. So no matter what date we pick, there will be some player somewhere that is in a quote unquote trapped position.
Speaker 3:The issue is how do we reduce significantly the number of those trapped players Immediately? By going from January 1 to August or September, you reduce that number significantly because I think we estimate it's around 30 percent. Now. It'll drop, you know, maybe to as low as 10 percent or below. If we go to September 1, the thinking is it'll drop even lower than maybe to as low as 10% or below. If we go to September one, the thinking is it'll drop even lower than it would be at August one, and I think in our research September one was like 75% of States were a September one or later.
Speaker 5:Somewhere in that there's a couple of August 15th in there, Like there's some. But yeah, generally that's the number.
Speaker 3:So that will solve a lot of trapped issues. It will not solve all, but there is no way to solve all. There is no perfectly right answer, which means there's always going to be somebody who's now going to be annoyed that it's september 1 or august 1 or whatever, and there will likely be some organizations that may stay at january 1 and in that, the teams that are formed under one or the other, if they go into some type of interplay tournament or change like that, they will have to be aware of potential slight roster adjustments which I think you would describe as unfortunate, but it is a part of the consequence of also allowing some independent decision making.
Speaker 5:I think that's right. The only thing I would push back on is the relative age effect question, which you and I have debated offline and in meetings with previous administration in US soccer is that if you align your club and your national team selections on the same date, I do wonder if you worsen the effect, the relative age effect, versus having different cycles. So our youth national team players, if you pick September 1, our oldest youth national team players will necessarily have players up to three months older than them on the team, which I don't think is a bad thing for their personal development and I think it will stretch. I hope we expect and unfortunately we asked for data when this happened the first time. What are the numbers now? What are the numbers later?
Speaker 5:There have been reports that relative age effect at best has not changed at all except where we've created quotas and selection. But it hasn't changed through education. But if now we are on different cycles because I need to all of youth national teams, that will still be on the international calendar. So I do think at worst it's a net neutral for youth national teams. At best I think it improves player development for those kids who are playing up Fair.
Speaker 4:Do you get the sense, mike? Just being at the level you're at that there will be organizations that won't change.
Speaker 5:Oh sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that that's feasible, more than feasible, there's a stick in the mud all the time that's feasible, more than feasible.
Speaker 4:There's a stick in the mud all the time. I just wonder. I would wonder the. Not that we have to speculate on that, but I would just wonder what the reasoning for something like that is. Because if you're a youth we've gone back and forth about this ad nauseum on this podcast but if you are a youth club operator, there's not a whole lot of positives you can glean from the January 1 and birth year registration.
Speaker 5:In the beginning days of the DA, where you just had the two oldest age groups, who were U16 and U18, and, by the way, those were mislabeled too, because the Federation actually had the wrong dates. They were U-17s and U-19s, which we'll let that go for now. But you could manage it with your DAA on your January 1. But I think if you are participating in a league that does not value school sports, then changing may not be in your interest. It may not be for you. If your kids don't play high school, if they're not be in your interest, it may not be for you. You know, if your kids don't play high school, if they're not involved in these things, then you know you may see some of those leagues choose not to change, and that's certainly their choice.
Speaker 5:And I think from the Federation standpoint that was kind of the point is to mandate it to everybody from one centralized location as to what you should do and how you should do it in white. And, by the way, doug, I think there are, there are groups out there that will legitimately do grade school soccer, especially in the most, you know, in registration-based programming. I register, I get placed on a team, I play my eight games. I have my one training session a week. There's going to be places around the country that just do first grade, second grade, third grade and more power to them.
Speaker 5:But so that flexibility exists. But I think currently we can absolutely expect that there will be some birth year participation all right, can we stop now talking about birth year and consider this the final?
Speaker 4:well, we can we can stop until march.
Speaker 5:We can stop until march and until we have to stop talking about it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well not until we have the final all right.
Speaker 3:so so come march, when there's a fancy website with more discussion, yeah um, we'll stop about it and nobody has to worry about anything changing for 18 months or so.
Speaker 5:I've got plenty of time to get it out year, which I don't understand, but they needed that runway. It was the right reason, Even folks that were really really pushing to make the change. Once you collected all of that went, this makes sense. Let's do 26.
Speaker 3:Okay, Now I'm going to say this because I can see or hear right now somebody saying man, this is a mess. Why doesn't US soccer just mandate everything and make it all the same way? And for the record, I will applaud US soccer for actually showing restraint and their jaywalking enforcement and not trying to do that and to listen to the differing perspectives, and I think that is a really positive thing actually. But it begs the question of why doesn't American soccer work that way? Because for people in other countries, the Federation has a lot more direct control of the way the sport is governed, although in those countries there are still a lot of tensions between the Federation and the pro leagues and between the clubs and the pro leagues and the clubs and the federation. So there's a lot of the same things, but the difference in the US is that the federation involvement in youth soccer is far less direct, with far less total control. I think there's a lot of positives to that. There's some negatives to it, but it begs the question of why is that? And so, mike, I think you're an interesting one on this topic because you know you are the CEO of a federation member, us Club Soccer, which is a member of the national governing body of the sport, which is the US Soccer Federation, which is established by statute, which is the Ted Stevens Olympic Act. And if I flip it, the Olympic Act creates a national governing body whose job it is to basically pick the Olympic team for all Olympic sports and then to quote unquote govern the sport.
Speaker 3:Then I'm not sure how it works.
Speaker 3:Actually, in all the other sports within soccer, that governing body is then made up of a bunch of members. Other sports within soccer, that governing body is then made up of a bunch of members. So every state association, us Club Soccer, ayso, mls, all these different organizations that meet certain requirements for certain statuses, status, level of members, actually do the work of operating the various platforms, whether that's a youth platform, a pro platform, not high school, not college, because they're not a part of this right. But then under let's just pick US Club Soccer, because that's one of the members of the US Soccer Federation US Club Soccer then has a ton of leagues and clubs that are members of US Club Soccer. So you see sort of a cascading hierarchy here of organizations that go from said big policy pick Olympic teams to operate platforms or sanction platforms. I should say, operate some sanction a lot to leagues and clubs that are really touching the end user in terms of interfacing with the parent and the player, which are clubs and leagues. Is that a fairly accurate description of the ecosystem?
Speaker 5:Yeah, and then you've got to incorporate that once US soccer is recognized by the USOPC, you also then have to be recognized by FIFA, and so you've got kind of that interesting dynamic. If you notice, our Olympic teams don't have the crest on their jerseys. Right, they got USA because they're part of the Olympic movement, not representing the federation at the Olympics, those types of things, whereas in the World Cup and all of the other competitions they do have on the crest. But 116 members, four of whom are national associations we are one, there's three of those in the youth space and trying to manage that across a continent. And if you think about 50 states who are generally the size of individually, of any European country, you could envision a scenario where you have 50 federations and in that, where you are creating, where climate is generally the same in the state, except for California and maybe a few others, but it's more localized in terms of the Federation's oversights and control, however you want to define that word than it is here, because we're just different.
Speaker 3:The United States of America is just different, and so back that up, mike, because I think what you said is interesting, because if you take, if you go back to when the federation was formed, which do you know what that date was?
Speaker 5:I don't know I think we just had the hundredth, didn't we or something?
Speaker 3:maybe I should know that, but a hundred years ago and considering that the sport at that point was nowhere near the most popular sport or as popular as it is now In fact it was. In some places there wasn't soccer and you're dealing with a continent the delegation of responsibility to members of US soccer that were located in each of the states the 55, it was at the time 55 state associations, because a couple of states had two associations, north and south. That made sense right, because there was no way that a 100 years ago a centralized us soccer could operate soccer programming for a sport that was at its very, very infancy in this country, with very few people playing it in all localities, in all states, in all cities. They had to delegate to some degree. So somewhere along the line that was a decision to create members that were empowered to do that. Is that an accurate statement?
Speaker 5:Well, not only that, but there was a time not that long ago and Dean can speak to this where state associations, especially the adult state associations, were actively involved in national team programming, like selling tickets, parking cars, getting like they were managing from the bottom up the federation and, as the federation has evolved into, I think, managing the sport more appropriately as it's grown. That's been a difficult transition, so that's another trend.
Speaker 3:I like the inference of Dean watching black and white TV and selling national team tickets back in the day. But that's an interesting statement because it supports that right. The Federation didn't have the manpower to do everything, so they separate, they didn't have the manpower to do everything. They didn't have the money.
Speaker 5:Some of the organizations used to help make sure they could make payroll, and that was before we got involved, but it wasn't that long ago where that was the reality.
Speaker 4:I mean really before the World Cup here in 94, probably that was largely the case right the 80s, even that that that recent I would think.
Speaker 5:I don't know if it was that recent. I think you know some of that might have been a little bit before that, but certainly you know. We certainly have folks that were around in 94, who were actively involved in the world cup in 94, who were still part of the membership, reaching out and saying, hey, what's our role going to be in 16? Not realizing the changes within the federation and, more importantly, the changes within 26 now run excuse me, 26 who now run.
Speaker 5:Right, they now run the world cup, even though it will be on our shores. So yeah, I, I think that's right, doug, in 94 you had a lot of folks from the membership who were actively involved in promoting, uh, the world cup. It's certainly in 91, I would imagine that that's or, excuse me, 99, that certainly that was. That was the case then as well. I would think, um, dean, you can correct us on that. But but we get in. I get incoming all the time from folks saying well, wait a minute, you know you're, you're on the technical committee, how can we help? And I'm like, well, there's not much for us to do. This is a different world now.
Speaker 1:Doug nailed it like from 89 to 94. And then I like to call him Dr Cullinan, but Mike was spot on. Even during the World Cup, the state associations were involved, I will tell you, like the Olympic qualifiers and the US national team games, they were done because of people like Richard Groff that were stepping up, you know, betty D'Angelo, charlotte Moran, I mean, you know, the state associations were kind of the driving force behind those games and and put a different person in a different state. So you're 100 percent right and I think that is no longer the case, right.
Speaker 5:That's right, Groff's an absolute legend. He just left the board. He's an absolute legend and he was. I mean. The work that those folks did as volunteers cannot be understated in terms of how the federation functioned or operated and our national teams and our Olympic teams actually got put together and competed.
Speaker 3:So and this is really interesting, because the question we're trying to get down to here is how come soccer here is different than it is in other places? And so the answer is that we're unpacking here is that when soccer was started here, the country's so big, there were so few people playing it, there were so little resources into it that you had to have some type of division of labor to actually make it work, to get people playing the sport in all the different areas of the country, to support the sport. And then what has happened over time is these organizations, these entities. So if you take 55 youth associations across 50 states and then you take 55, I believe it was adult associations- Well, they're down to 54 on the youth side.
Speaker 3:Okay, 54. So easy math. Let's just 50 state associations for youth, 50 for adult. That's a hundred different organizations that were helping out to grow the sport at a grassroots level when there was very little resource, very little people involved, and actually help move the sport to the point it is Now. As that happens, then you have and this is before we talked about leagues or clubs or other association members. You have a hundred different entities now that have to have some type of structure of staff and employees and leaders who are in their area and they start to build programming and businesses and positions and support the game.
Speaker 3:And you fast forward then a hundred years to now when people say why is it so fragmented? And we can talk about whether fragmentation that people think is actually accurate or whether it's overblown, because I think we do think some of it's overblown. But you say it's that way because that was the only way soccer was going to grow in this country. And you the the positive of a decentralized, fragmented execution model to collect resources and to get a lot of people in different areas growing. The sport then turns into kind of a clunky, very difficult to manage situation when you have, for example, if we just talk about those 50 youth state associations and 50 adult state associations, 100 ceos and presidents that have to be on the same page to get anything done at a national level.
Speaker 5:Well, throwing the athletes and the pros gets you to 116 in terms of membership, and aligning all of that is a challenge for sure, and that's how you end up with a decision going all the way back to the beginning of the conversation on birth year. That is decentralized. It says you, at the most local level, need to be empowered to make the decisions that are going to help to grow our sport, understanding all of the ramifications of said decision. And so, yeah, if it wasn't set up that way, I'm not sure where we would be as a soccer playing country. But the fact that it was set up that way now, and trying to transition into what you know, if you were to start over, would it look like this? No, I don't think anybody, even in in one of these organizations, would say if you were to start over and rebuild this from scratch, this is how I would build this, but it is what we have. And so now we are trying to unwind that, we're trying to change the direction of travel in terms of how decisions get made, mandates versus localized control and all of those types of things. And then now we've got to start to deal with the governance ramifications.
Speaker 5:And when you talk about fragmentation. It's natural that there's going to be friction when you have 116 members and you can legitimately or at least you could until very recently anybody could apply to be a member. There's no special. You've got to have a number of things. It's not that I don't want to. You can just wake up tomorrow and become a member. There's a lot of things you got to do and it's not easy to do, but it's not impossible to just become a member of my decision and this is what I need the federation to do for me or for our organization. So it is how we ended up here. I do think that and I understand those that would say no, we want mandates, we'll just tell us what to do and we'll do it.
Speaker 4:But I think that we can lead a little bit differently than just with unenforceable mandates and that's what we've had in the past is, or mandates we chose not to enforce, and you would agree, though, mike, we're in a different place as far as leadership goes in the sport than we were, and that's no disrespect to those people were, and that's no disrespect to those people, but more people that played the game coached at a high level in leadership positions.
Speaker 5:It's with great appreciation for those people that you can say that that's true, no question.
Speaker 5:I think you know when I joined the US Club Board in 2015, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for everybody who was on the board at that time. But if I look at our board now, in 25, just nine years and the difference in the depth of the conversations we have related to how do you manage the business, how do we create environments that would allow our clubs and leagues to better develop players. It's just different. We are more intentional about it.
Speaker 5:I think when we all got involved, coaches were just coaches, right. You went down, you played golf during the day, you didn't got a coffee and then you showed up for training, but you weren't involved in the day-to-day operations of these companies. And there's three or 4,000 youth clubs. They're all individual companies and a majority of them are nonprofit, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you run it efficiently or inappropriately. It just tells you how you operate and how you serve back the game. But I think it's with great appreciation what those folks did to ensure that we have a US Soccer Federation. And now, as the game is evolving and the leadership is evolving the leadership in each of the organization members, certainly within US Soccer, is evolving it's now time to look at what is the future state here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let me pull this back out to 20,000 feet, because I think in many ways you could probably see the same trajectory and description in almost any new business area as what we're seeing in soccer. Which is the start was this is a new idea. We've got to grow it. So we need a lot of people involved, we need to allocate resources, we want to create ease, to get people involved, to support the growth of the sport. Then you get this proliferation of organizations and entities that are growing and then what we've seen in the last 15 years so if we say 100 years ago was the start, then there's 50, 70 years of growth of these organizations to this max number of decentralized, independent small businesses, nonprofit or for-profit. State association, member association league, whatever it may be Almost max chaos to some degree. Association member Association League, whatever it may be almost max chaos to some degree. And now what we've seen in the last 15 years is increasing speed of consolidation, which is US club drawing from zero players in 2001 to 600,000 plus players in 2025.
Speaker 5:2024, we registered 722,000 players, 720,. There you go.
Speaker 3:You see at least one state association, ohio North and Ohio South, are now merged into Ohio, just like you see organizations like the ECNL that started with 40 clubs and three age groups and however many players that would be, and now are 100 plus thousand players in all sorts of areas, and so you're seeing this consolidation into bigger, stronger entities. That also creates its own amount of friction and its own amount of disagreement as to what's right or wrong, but it is almost natural. I would imagine you would see this in sort of the product arc of any new product or new industry that's created is nothing to a lot to then who is really providing the bulk of the industry? And it's probably a handful of organizations that dominate the market, and I think that's where what we see now in soccer. Somebody could, you know, disagree with that, I'm sure, but I think in most independent or objective people would say, yeah, that's an accurate statement.
Speaker 5:Well, jacob gave us the assist. Thank you, jacob. April 5th of 1913 was the founding of the Federation. So it was largely a mom and pop startup for more than 100 years really, if you think about it. That's how it operated, that's how it behaved. And now you know, these consolidations are starting to take place.
Speaker 5:And when you think about fragmentation and friction, certainly the only thing we can control is inside of US club soccer and our leagues and Christian, I know we talk about this all the time I'm not sure we we don't use fragmentation. And inside of us club we we understand very clearly what is the pyramid. You know players can enter. We had 120 000 of those players, or recreational players, you know, entering, entering the system and building their way in through all of our leagues and many of whom you have, or some of whom you have, strong relationships with as well with regional leagues.
Speaker 5:But inside of us club soccer we don't. We don't find the fragmentation doesn't mean there's not friction. It doesn't mean that that once in a while I've got to mitigate a conversation between the ecnl and one of our member leagues on some things. Certainly that happens and I think it generally happens for all the right reasons, it's not a negative at all outside. When you're set up the way that the federation was set up, it's natural that it looks the way it looks, and now consolidation is happening on a number of different levels for a lot of really good reasons, and we're one and I would be interested to see where it goes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I would add, for anybody who still is saying, well, I still want one monolithic structure and pyramid, I would say we're talking only within a portion of soccer, because outside of the federation and the clubs part we're talking about, you have these very distinct ecosystems of soccer. You have the youth soccer, which is what we're talking about. You have pro soccer, which is is very, very different, and in this country we have multiple pro leagues, not the levels of the same league integrated, but independent pro leagues. You have college soccer, which brings in hundreds, if not thousands, of other organizations with all other visions and purposes, but college soccer, which is a really important part of the American player pathway that, as we've talked about on the men's side, needs some thought and needs some revision. You have high school soccer and now you're bringing in tens of thousands more organizations and municipalities. So you have all these different parts of soccer.
Speaker 3:One of the things I do like about one of the statements that I've heard recently out of the Federation is that all soccer is soccer, because instead of having sort of a denigrating look, if you're in this part of the soccer ecosystem, one monolithic structure. It's going to be really, really difficult I'd say impossible to get everything when you're talking about tens of thousands of different organizations with different other visions, purposes, missions, all doing the exact same thing, marching in uniform. And what we're trying to do in many ways is we we and I've put this as the collective US club, anybody in the U space we try and create a youth soccer ecosystem that gets better and better and better, that provides better service and that is also better connected with the other parts of the soccer ecosystem, whether that is high school soccer, college soccer, pro soccer, international soccer.
Speaker 5:Well, as you know, and I think you guys touched on on the last part is that to hear US soccer say that there's value in the collegiate space and that we want to be involved in helping evolve collegiate soccer currently on the men's side, is amazing that you know we've been in rooms where we don't want, we don't value high school soccer, we don't value collegiate soccer. And US Soccer is saying now, not only do we value them, but how do we get involved, how do we help influence a better environment and, on the men's side, get it to a 10 month, create pathways for players? Now, what is also going to have to be true is that we're going to have to create more pathways for the American player, because currently, if you look at what happens beyond the youth space, the American player has fewer and fewer options, and so I would hope that the more involved US soccer gets in the collegiate space, they're going to have to consider ensuring that the American youth player has the opportunity to participate. That's not to say we shouldn't be bringing in foreign players Of course we should and to come to our country and get a college education amazing. That should all be true, but when you look at the numbers in the final four on the men's side, it's scary as to what's. And get a college education. Amazing, that should all be true, but when you look at the numbers in the final four on the men's side, it's scary as to what's happening for the American youth player. And that's got to change.
Speaker 5:And I would love and this is the decision that only the pro leagues can make for them to consider. The same thing is that if we're going to invest in winning a world cup, we need to provide opportunities for younger players to actually getting to get on the field. American younger players get on the field and getting meaningful minutes. And if you don't do it through some sort of rule whatever, whatever they decide why would I? As a coach, I'm going to play the best 11 period I got to win, whether it's the collegiate level, the professional level. So what has to happen at whoever is providing the rules for that particular competition? So I think it's wonderful that we're getting into the collegiate space, that we're working with the men's side in particular. I hope that that trickles down into the high school space as well, but it must come with some, in my opinion, with more opportunity for the American youth player.
Speaker 3:Well, what we're in to some degree is a state of nation building still of what is soccer going to be now that it has significant resources.
Speaker 3:There is significant participation, there is significant opportunity.
Speaker 3:In fact, there's more people playing soccer than ever before, right at the same time that the player pathway out of youth soccer is becoming more difficult for the American player, as you mentioned.
Speaker 3:But it's an opportunity for all these organizations. So, whether you're the state association that started back in the 50s and helped grow the sport, now you have to find the relevance of what is your organization in today's world of soccer. Or whether you're a US club soccer, the national organization, with 720,000 players and sanctioning hundreds of leagues, how do you make that relevant and better for the future From our perspective as a league? How do we make our league better and stronger for soccer? You know I continue to say there's not been the table where you have all of the people from all of the different perspectives sitting. You know that at least can represent a consolidated perspective of the industry. That table needs to happen because I think that's the key in solving some of these problems and what, again, I would say is sort of the expected and inevitable piece of the growth of the game from where it was to where it is today, and I'm cautiously optimistic that it'll get sorted out.
Speaker 5:We're doing a number of things with US Youth at the convention, the conversations. We're now actually able to just pick up the phone and talk to one another, not just with USU Soccer but with the other organizations as well. Where does that go? Where does it lead? I just know that there's a tremendous amount of inefficiency in the sport right now. There's duplication of efforts. That's costing money, that's costing time, and I'm not sure it's providing the value back to the players and the families that a different model could. But it's easy to come up with the what's next, but that would require a lot of self-sacrifice along the way for a lot of these organizations, ours included, and so it's easy to be kind of altruistic about imagine this, so imagine that, but it's easier said than done for sure. But we're committed to showing up to any room where that exists. Christian, we'll be there.
Speaker 1:So great to have US Club CEO Mike Cullinan on this edition of Breaking the Line. The ECNL podcast Going to take a break. When we come back we'll take a look at how ECNL boys is continuing to grow and you're seeing that in the MLS Super Draft. That and more.
Speaker 2:And don't forget, the bracken brain buster is still to come too from athletes just starting to turn heads to some of the best athletes to ever play their games. Gatorade shows that they are the proven fuel of the best. For the athletes who give everything, nothing beats gatorade, the tested and proven fuel of the ECNL.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast. Once again, here's the ECNL president and CEO, Christian.
Speaker 3:Labers. Let's pivot because a couple of things that I think timely, that we want to talk about before we wrap up here. Number one MLS Super Draft happened last week or maybe 10 days ago. Want to celebrate had 20 ECNL alum selected in this draft, nine in the first round. So a huge shout out to the clubs. I think 18 clubs, 18 different clubs, represent those 20 draftees. Highest draftee was Alex Harris from Columbia. Premier went fourth overall to Colorado Rapids, highest drafted ECNL player in history.
Speaker 3:Shout out to the two clubs that had two draft picks NCFC Academy down in Raleigh, where we were just at with our boys Super Cup at their facility, and FSA out of Connecticut. But then a whole list of clubs Manhattan FC, arizona, albion, hurricanes, slammers, charlotte, charlotte, independence, louisville City, crossfire, concord, surf, pac, northwest, sesa, nasa, top Hat, nc Fusion, fc, dallas. Players from all over the country going from the ECNL into the pros through that draft mechanism Again, speaking to some of the other stuff pros through that draft mechanism. Again, speaking to some of the other stuff, mls still has a draft and WSL no longer has a draft. So differences even in the way the pro leagues are looking at that space.
Speaker 3:But there's going to be more and more talent coming out of youth soccer in this country in the coming years. It's it's incredibly important that the organizations youth, college and pro figure out to what your point is, mike, that how do we get more of these talents better and get them started in a professional pathway. And thanks to some good research from Jacob Bourne here, interestingly enough, in 2024, out of the 90 draft picks, 18 of them actually got minutes in their rookie season. 14 of those 18 were picked in the first round, if that's any indication of the nine first round draft picks out of the ECNL. Hopefully several of them will actually get some minutes, but being drafted is still another step from actually getting on the field as a pro in MLS. Speaking to how hard that transition is and the need for something, probably between the college game change to the college game and then the first league pro soccer.
Speaker 5:It's interesting to me that NWSL has chosen a different path, without youth programming currently, whereas MLS does have its own league and does have homegrown and territory rules, and yet the draft lives on. I don't have a particular opinion about it, it's just it's interesting to me that that's the case. But it does show that you know clubs develop players. Leagues provide the platform and the organization for those players to shine and compete. If you're a good player in a good club, you're surrounding yourselves with other top players and top coaching in an environment that's conducive to development. There's a path for you. You don't have to be in any one particular league to get an opportunity. But connecting the collegiate space to the youth space and to the pro space, I think would be fantastic. And then moving to a 10-month system, if that could ever happen, I think would be fantastic. And then moving to a 10 month system, if that could ever happen, these numbers in terms of the minutes played, hopefully would go up by rookies in that case.
Speaker 3:It may be repeated to a certain extent, but this is the sport growing up. I mean, you talk about the need for young players to get minutes. That's a common issue in other sports, right? Other sports that are well more advanced in terms of their history in this country, so it's a good sign of the ongoing maturity of the game. You know, again, to our part, we got a bunch of US soccer people coming to our symposium in February presenting the US way to try and get that vision. I mean, we're well over 800 people now at that event. That event is sold out and then some busting at the seams, so an opportunity to really share some of that vision from the Federation to the clubs in our ecosystem all over the country. And then I guess, before we close off here with Bracken Brain Busters, if he's got one, the first one at 2025, no pressure on that, doug.
Speaker 4:I've got it. I've got it, all right.
Speaker 3:He's got it, mike. Any other quick updates initiatives you want to share from a US club perspective?
Speaker 5:Yeah, just a quick thank you to both of you for coming to our Leadership Live event in October. I think that's the first time you guys were exposed to the US way that was presented by the Federation and I'm glad Matt's coming to the symposium. I think it's that's a wonderful opportunity to share that with all of 800. Wow, that's, that's amazing. You know, in line with that, this week you know we're announcing our first technical director, haya Raspali, who comes to us from FIFA, will be joining the staff to take over our ID2 program and to build that out. I think it's it's really important that we give a tremendous thank you to, to Jerry McKeown and and to to Trish Chalifero, because you know they they run as a part time. They've run our ID2 program for years and have done so with exceptional skill.
Speaker 5:But we spend about $700,000. Our revenues are zero and our expenses are over $700,000 in ID2. So you know, having a full-time person who understands the space, coached obviously the women at Creighton was in our youth national team programming before working with FIFA. I think we're thrilled we had him at our East Regional event for 82 that we did in Charleston and he was just out in California as well doing that. So we're certainly thrilled to bring him on board. He'll be both at the convention and at the symposium as well. So we look forward to him taking the reins and working with ECNL and how we continue to work together on this pathway.
Speaker 5:And I think bringing Matt in to share as a sporting director from the Federation, to share that vision of US soccer, just shows that the collaboration, the conversations they are happening. We are in a place where we can continue to grow and support what they're doing. For sure, because we want to win games too. We want our youth national teams and all of our extended national teams and certainly our our men's and women's teams to keep to to win. So you know, I think everybody has seen, seen our safeguarding stuff and and we're we're thrilled with with with Allison coming on board but but bringing on Ross is a big deal for us and we're certainly excited about it.
Speaker 3:Echo that Ross great guy, great background, Absolutely.
Speaker 4:Yep, totally, Are you ready?
Speaker 3:Lavers, we're ready, okay.
Speaker 4:We're ready. I do want to say before I ask this first question of 2025, that if you have any questions or topics that you want for the podcast, you can send those to info at theetNLcom. The question kind of that we covered on this particular podcast for birth year. We've continued to get a number of questions about birth year, although we didn't ask out a specific question. That was, we basically took all those questions and made you know the beginning of the podcast. So but if you have those, please send them to us. We're happy to discuss what you guys want to talk about. Info, info at thehtnlcom. All right, first question 2025 is and I do find it gets harder every podcast to really come up with a good, good question what I will ask today and Mike, you get to go first. When you were a kid, what did you dream about being when you grew up? And we can compare that to where you are now as a grownup.
Speaker 5:It's a good one, doug. What did I dream about? A couple of things. One my father's retired army graduated West Point and so I lived that life as a youth. I did my high school years in Germany and got to play in the German leagues while I was in high school, you know. So, certainly, following in the military and becoming a general or some you know some wild idea was on top of mind, and then, of course, playing professionally was certainly a dream. So those were the two, I think. And what's interesting, and a little bit of behind the scenes for the listeners here, is I wasn't sure how scripted the brain buster was, but it is on the spot. So I appreciate that. How different is it Not that I?
Speaker 4:mean you are the general? Yeah, it's not that different.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it's not that different. I don't have any stars, I don't get shot at I do generals get shot at?
Speaker 4:Really, do generals?
Speaker 5:get shot at. No well, I actually just finished up a thing on patent, but being in a leadership role seemed to always kind of be where I was going to be. I was usually a captain of the team, even though I was rarely one of the top players. So I don't think where I ended up was too dissimilar from the original dream. The path was wildly different. You know, I passed up on becoming leaving high school and going straight into a nuclear submarine and you know, doing that whole thing. That was on the table for a little bit of time, but that was the dream and I don't know how different it ended up. Quite frankly.
Speaker 3:Kalina on the silent service, I believe it's called that would be.
Speaker 5:I don't know how you do in there, kelana, I don't know that you want to put my finger on the button.
Speaker 4:Yeah, keep it away from the button. Interestingly, Mike, my dad was a drill sergeant in the Army there you go. Didn't go to West Point or any of that, but yes, I've lived that Army life as well. All right, we are going to go to Dean Linkey next. He usually goes last, but today we're going to give him this opportunity. Dean, what do you have for me?
Speaker 1:Really enjoyed the show. Great to have Mike on. Mike was outstanding. Love hearing about Ross Pauly as well. He played for the Colorado Rapids when I was the voice of the team, so it'd be great to see him as well. So thank you for that, Mike, and a great bracken brain buster. It's easy for me. I grew up in Toledo. I wanted to be Kelvin Ramsey. I think, Doug, you might know that name. You're a little young, but there's a big time Buckeye point guard from Toledo played for Ohio State when I realized that couldn't happen. I'm a huge Tigers fan. I would fall asleep every night listening to Ernie Harwell, who's no longer with us. May he rest in peace. But that's when my desire to be a broadcaster kind of came in, right around the eighth grade. I've been broadcasting now for 30 years, so I definitely feel like I'm living the dream every day. So great question, Doug.
Speaker 4:All right, let's bring in our crack producer Jacob Boyd.
Speaker 6:Thank you, doug. My dream is not that dissimilar from Dean's. Growing up I wanted to be a professional ice hockey player in St Louis and bringing the St Louis Blues their first Stanley Cup championship ever. And then, when I was in high school, I got cut from my hockey program and those dreams were shattered and so I decided the next best thing was to be working in sports, doing some sort of communications. I always loved writing, and so I figured I was's going to be a like a sports writer for a newspaper, and then in college I kind of shifted that to work for leagues. The dream never officially died, though. Even when I was in college I still thought maybe I can go play in like the lowest minor league level for a couple of years, get a paycheck for two years, ride the bus and then call it a day, but I still play ice hockey.
Speaker 4:But that was a dream, was to lift the cup for the blues. Love it, love it. All right. First growing up in wisconsin, freezing your butt off I think my my ambitions were very different.
Speaker 3:First of all, when I was really young, it was baton rouge, louisiana, where I believe I wanted to be the uh, the pilot for the voltron force. You know, I don't know if anybody here remembers watching voltron, but then I think I where I believe I wanted to be the pilot for the Voltron Force. You know, I don't know if anybody here remembers watching Voltron, but then I think I was pretty sure I wanted to be Optimus Prime for a while. So you know, I was thinking about different things than you guys. And then, of course, of course, every guy who plays sports wants to be a pro athlete. I think, doug, we've talked about this. I think part of the charm of most guys is they think they have a chance of being a pro athlete long after that bus has gone.
Speaker 4:Yes, Well past yes.
Speaker 3:They're like. There's probably some 26-year-olds that think just the chance hasn't come yet, not a shot. They're on the way there. I guess that's where I would go, with that. We are where we are here. I've got no motorized Lions or Transformers or pro soccer career, so I guess we'll just have to facilitate it for the next generation.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you've done all right. You've done all right, all right. Well, my turn, I'll bring it up. Close it up here. Absolutely 100%. Wanted to be in the NBA. Grew up in Indiana. My turn, I'll bring it up. Close it up here. Absolutely 100%. Wanted to be in the NBA. Grew up in Indiana, indianapolis big basketball area Used to shoot baskets out in the neighborhood by myself thinking I was Larry Bird or something like that.
Speaker 4:I did have the opportunity in high school to help one of my teachers who did the camera for underneath the basket at the Indiana Pacer games, and back then the NBA was still on local television stations and I was his cable tender. So I sat in a chair right under the basket, got to see magic bird cream. A lot, of a lot of those guys, cause I'm older. That's probably when I realized I probably wasn't going to play in the NBA. But I did sit under the basket for every home game two seasons tending cable for for the. But then that was. That was super cool. But those guys are crazy, crazy, freakishly athletic but always wanted to be an NBA player. Sadly, not close to being good enough to do that, although I did pretty good in our neighborhood game that time, so kind of like the nba. Yeah, you know I, I drank that it kind of was yeah you do what you can doug goes down to the local court.
Speaker 5:Now he's there in cincinnati and he's in his 1980s shorts that are that are slightly too short, or you know, I think he goes by Billy Hoyle. No, no, we talked about this.
Speaker 4:We talked about this pre-show. I don't do anything that requires a change of direction or any kind of explosive movement, so I'm sticking to things that will keep me upright. I'm very adverse to being injured. Very, very Dean, did you have a little story there, a little relevant basketball story you want to close us up with?
Speaker 1:I do. I love that. Mike very respectfully tipped his hat to the late great Kevin Payne. And when I started at US Soccer, we would pretty much three times a week play basketball at Colorado College and I went to steal the ball from Kevin Payne and broke his ribs. Yeah, mike, you've heard that story before by the way.
Speaker 5:I've heard it, I've heard it more than one time Dino, as you could imagine, he spent a little bit of time with Kevin. He likes to bring up the ones you know, that's one I've heard before For sure. For sure? Yeah, I don't think that was water under the bridge, dean. I think that one was in his mind for a long time. He had a memory. Yes, I mean he laughed about it. He wasn't upset about it, but yeah, I've heard that story before for sure.
Speaker 3:I mean, the question is, Dean, was it a foul or was that just incidental?
Speaker 1:Foul, like I thought I had it timed perfectly Back then. I was you know in shape and everything else, and so I wasn't a big slug. I mean, I was a pretty good player and I thought I had it timed. And he kind of moved a different way right into it and I just went right through his midsection and broke his ribs. I mean that's pretty wild. I thought I was done at US Soccer because of it.
Speaker 4:I know, was he on the board of US Soccer.
Speaker 5:He was running the show.
Speaker 3:Oh was he. Oh sorry, I mean a good thing of any employee is generally a good rule not to go break any bones of your direct report.
Speaker 5:I know. You know I give that advice to our team all the time. You should check the employee manual on that. Yeah, I think it's in the manual.
Speaker 4:Yeah, if the president calls answer, okay, yes, the president calls answer no, I don't care about that, necessarily, and if I text.
Speaker 5:You and I need something, but I don't want you to break any bones. Yeah, that's, that's on top of the list all right.
Speaker 3:Well, first show of 2025 is in the books.
Speaker 1:Thank you guys, thanks guys thank you, christian labors, doug bracken, the great mike Cullinan, jacob Bourne, for each and every one of them and all of the great people at the ECNL, including you, the members. I'm Dean Linkey, saying we'll see you in two weeks for another edition of Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast. Thank you for listening to Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast and remember, if you have a question that you want answered on Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast, email us at info at theecnlcom.