Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
The Elite Clubs National League was founded in 2009 and continues to lead by daring to do things differently, embedded with grit, collaboration and tenacity – all things learned from the beautiful game. The ECNL protects and propels the integrity of the game and everyone it impacts by facilitating the perfect symmetry of excellence and humility, exclusivity and accessibility, freedom and community. We believe that challenging everyone to rise to their best creates game-changers that live well, long after cleats are unlaced. Born out of the belief in a better way. Continued in the ever-evolving pursuit of excellence.
Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
Club Chaos: What Does The Changing Youth Soccer Landscape Really Mean? | Ep. 114
Let us know the topics of interest to you!
The Breaking the Line team is back from Las Vegas and a lot has changed since early February.
In Episode 114, Christian Lavers and Doug Bracken sit down to discuss the changing youth soccer landscape. Clubs are in peak tryout season, and with that comes plenty of questions about club visions and player pathways. As a player and parent, how do you know which club is right for you? What about a club is important, and what is just white noise?
That conversations leads to a much bigger discussion; club movement across leagues. More than 20 clubs will join either ECNL Boys or ECNL Girls for the 2025-26 season through new entry or promotion, and an additional 15 clubs will join the ECNL Regional League ranks in either Boys or Girls. With this movement, ECNL Boys will introduce the Far West Conference, and the ECNL Regional League will launch the Regional League - Gulf Coast, Regional League - Greater Michigan Alliance and a revamped Regional League - NorCal and Regional League - Golden State in ECNL Regional League Boys, and Regional League - Greater Michigan Alliance in ECNL Regional League Girls.
That's an incredible amount of movement from year to year, and the Breaking the Line team discusses what has caused this movement, why it's important, and what does it mean for the ECNL as a whole.
It's a great discussion into where we have been, where we currently are, and where we want to go.
If you have any questions about player or club movement, make sure to submit them at https://ecnl.info/BTL-Questions. And as always, make sure to follow the ECNL on all social channels, and don't forget to watch this podcast in video on YouTube!
This is the March 19 edition of Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast featuring ECNL President and CEO, christian Labors, and ECNL Vice President and Chief of Staff, doug Bracken. On this week's show, christian and Doug talk about new club members joining the ECNL, the emergence of several ECNL Regional League clubs being promoted to the National League. They also take a big picture view of club movement as they keep an eye on the overall soccer landscape throughout the entire show. Of course, the podcast will end with a bracken brain buster with ECNL superstars Jacob Bourne and Reed Sellers joining in on the fun. Remember, this is your show and the ECNL wants to hear from you. So if you have a question, email us at info at the ECnlcom. That's info at theecnlcom. Now I turn it over to christian labors welcome to break in the line.
Speaker 2:Here we are for the march 19th 2025 podcast. We are right in the middle of the craziness of youth soccer at this time of the year. Doug, Good to see you.
Speaker 3:You too. Is there ever a time when it's not craziness?
Speaker 2:I think back in, like 1998, maybe that's true, but now it's just a degree of crazy.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I think we're certainly at the peak of the sign curve, as they would say in terms of crazy Ramps up.
Speaker 3:You know, you're starting to get into that part of the season where the playoffs and all that starts to come into view and that definitely raises the temperature and along with all the other stuff which we're going to talk about today, here for it, Love it.
Speaker 2:I don't know if we love it or not but it is a reality that we exist in.
Speaker 3:That was sarcasm. I just yeah, sarcasm that we exist in. That was sarcasm, I just yeah, sarcasm.
Speaker 2:It's starting to get to playoff. Look forward time. Some teams have qualified, some teams are in the heat of it, spring season starting. That's kind of just normal. But then you add, there's tryouts going on in a large part of the country because again back 20 years ago tryouts were pretty much all in June and July in most of the country outside of California, which is there. I don't know why California is crazy like that early, but now in a lot of places tryouts have moved into February, march, certainly by May. Almost everybody is in that. So we're in the heat of that and all the clubs switching and the where should I play and what should I do for the coming year, which is complicated even more by the fact that some of those players aren't even done with the current year, which is a really sort of like how do you run it?
Speaker 3:How do you run a team like that, christian? How do you pick your team for the next year, or five months, or four months before the season's over of the current year?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know. I mean in in the midwest the high school girls programs are done from a club perspective. They all play high school in the spring, so it's a little easier for them to do february, march tryouts because then everybody goes to high school and they come back for the postseason in june. So there's a little bit of weirdness there. But when you're in the parts of the country that are actually doing tryouts and then still playing the remainder of their games, I think a lot of those teams or clubs try and push the tryout to April or May so they're shrinking that weird time of planning for next year.
Speaker 3:Here. It's that way, right when I feel like it used to be. In June we would do tryouts and everybody's generally done, so you didn't have the obvious you know weirdness of that. And now that the tryouts have all pushed to May 1st, so you know you may still have games to play and all that kind of stuff which creates an interesting dynamic and also has made us look at how we just set up our season and and where we go and what when we play. But uh, it's a weird. Uh, it's a weird deal. It's like you know, if I move it earlier it's going to be more successful. Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 2:yeah, I was trying to think about why it moved this way and I think I think part of it is planning right is as soccer clubs have become more sophisticated and bigger.
Speaker 2:It's like anything when it's bigger you need processes and as probably the economics have increased, in soccer clubs there's a need for more planning, because you got more people on staff, you got facilities to pay for, you got all that.
Speaker 2:So that kind of pushes all of this earlier in terms of a business process. People would like to plan on a farther advanced calendar. But the other thing I think and this probably goes back to the seismic shift that was created with the Development Academy in 2007, is it kind of broke the USYS monopoly, which one of the positives of that monopoly and there were many negatives, but one of which was a more uniform calendar and competition season. So everybody kind of pushed towards the end. But when that broke and then you had different competitions for different clubs and different teams I think to your point people did try and start to move things earlier because they could and they started making decisions that were, you know, in their interest and I don't mean that in a negative way, but in their interest to say, hey, if I can do tryouts at this point, it gives me a better stability and security for my club than waiting, you know, a month later, and maybe there's been a little creep that's just come earlier and earlier.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's all great, great points, Without sounding too high and mighty. I would always advocate for doing things in the best interest of the players, but there are obviously other things in play there. The points that you made.
Speaker 2:By the way, the other complicated point to this is and this will maybe pivot to the main topic for today.
Speaker 2:By the way, the other complicated point to this is and this will you know, maybe pivot to the main topic for today, which is leagues.
Speaker 2:But the other point to this is that players and parents have choices to make about where, which club, they want to be in. Let's just start with operating presumption that people try and do the right thing or try and do what they think is right and best. But there are people that come to tryouts but they don't accept a spot on the team, even if offered. There are people that accept spots and then decline them when they get a better offer seven days later. There's people that don't accept spots for a long time, hoping for something different, and then may come back later. So when you're talking about putting together teams, it's really really hard because you're dealing with shifting sands. And this is true even if every club was on the same calendar of tryouts and it might actually be worse if that was the case, because then everybody would be dealing with all of this at the same time it is a very difficult process to put together teams for clubs and and then also for players and parents who have to decide where where they want to be.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure, no, no question, Can players?
Speaker 4:shop around like that, try out for different clubs and then basically take whatever offer, quote, unquote offer they want.
Speaker 2:That's a good question, jacob. I will say it this way Some places, if you go back to sort of the legacy USYS model, there was a date at which everybody could do tryouts, and so every club in the state did tryouts on the same days, and then there was a date at which everybody could make offers. And that sounds like that controls the chaos to some degree, but it doesn't necessarily do that, because what that means then is everybody's trying to run tryouts on the exact same dates, which means if you are a player who does want to see what else is out there, you can't because you have choices and limited timeframes. And then, if you're a parent or a player, you're generally going to get offers from every single club that you try out at all at the same time with all the same timelines. And I say that because you know, with the size of clubs now and the levels of teams generally, people are going to be offered somewhere, right. And so even when it was defined to a certain time or two week period, there's some significant downsides to that. Now you spread it out, let's say let's go to the opposite end of the continuum. So the the example I just used was a very defined time period that applied to everybody, when you can have tryouts, when you can make offers, all that stuff. Now let's go to the other side of the continuum no rules, you can have tryouts whenever you want. Well, the good part about that is that players can probably see every club they want to, because they can pick and choose times. There's no constraint on the days at which they can do that or the time by which they have to make a decision.
Speaker 2:The negative on that model is that it could be just total chaos all year. Whenever something doesn't go your way, somebody wants to go explore the alternative. Whenever somebody's decided that this, I don't want to be here anymore, they just leave in the middle of the season and create a problem. So there's there's negatives that way, from integrity, stability of the teams and the schedules and all that sort of stuff. The positive of no time constraint is that players have an easier time choosing. Is that players have an easier time choosing, but you're still going to end up in the same spot, which is there's going to be people who say, hey, I got this offer from this club, but I'm going to look and see if this club gives me a better offer and then they're going to wait and you can't criticize that. That's probably the behavior everybody goes through when they have choices is decide what is best for them, but then that timeline starts pushing back on all the other players who may be waiting for offers or making decisions. I mean, doug, you answer that in a different way.
Speaker 3:It's incredibly difficult for clubs and and players, especially if there are different, different timelines and things and, to your point, no rules means you can have a really disruptive, you know year among your team.
Speaker 2:I mean worst case scenario. No rules could have a team implode in the middle of the season.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure, yeah, and that's. You obviously don't want that. That probably generally doesn't happen, which is a good thing, but no, I agree with you, it's a complicated kind of dance, if you will.
Speaker 2:And I think our position because we our rules and the way we've tried to set it up, at least for the places we have some jurisdiction is to try and identify a point at which tryouts and recruiting for lack of a better word can happen, where you protect a large chunk of the year so that there is stability and competition, integrity and all that sort of stuff, and then you create an opportunity for a long enough period of time that players who feel like there's a different alternative or maybe a better spot for them have the opportunity to check that out and to see if that's a better spot, Because we do think players and parents should have the ability to kind of choose between, and in order to do that, you have to create a time period for that to happen.
Speaker 2:I think we would both say Doug, because it's the way the rules are written. We very, very affirmatively believe players deserve the choice of where to go, because for all the reasons and we don't need to go through all the reasons because they're pretty obvious at the same time, I think sometimes there's a feeling that well, just because it's tryout period, I better go try out somewhere and, you know, just stick my foot in the water. Even if I'm happy, even if my club has been a pretty good experience, there gets to be some sort of weird social pressure that there are people that try out just to try out. That creates even additional instability. And then there is sort of on the far end of the continuum, what I'll call the club hopper, which is that you know the player that's on four clubs in four years and usually that doesn't work out long-term.
Speaker 3:No, I think there's obviously other things that are probably behind that, whether it be a parent, parents unhappiness, or you know at every little thing or whatever, or no failure to look at the long-term development process and where you're at on that and how that works. It could be a myriad of things, I think. Generally, if you're happy in a place and you feel like you're getting better and you're challenged and you're getting the exposure that you want to move on to the next level if that's what you want, then you're probably in a good spot to the next level. If that's what you want, then you know you're probably in a good spot. I get it from the big picture perspective of you know wanting to see what else is out there, having a right to choose, and what I will say about that is that the clubs and the teams also have that right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that shouldn't be forgotten in this. It is very, uh, kind of a wild, you know rush to form the teams and and all that. I haven't. I don't know if I don't know, maybe you have. I don't know if I've heard anywhere of anyone that you know has this nailed down to a science?
Speaker 2:what I would add in this, like some very unofficial uh math here and guesses, so nobody scream about it, but I would guess that the average player if we start it at u8 so let's get rid of the first very level entry rec program that they're a part of but from u8 to u18 I would guess that the average player is going to play for three to five different clubs over those 10 years. That many.
Speaker 3:Well, there's other factors that could be in that, whether they live in the same place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all the factors included, and maybe in some areas it's closer to three. And, by the way, again, it doesn't usually work out for somebody who's changing clubs every year, because there's usually a reason that's more specific to the player than to the clubs. There are plenty of times where a player is in one club and it's time for a change. It's time for a change because the player is outgrown the level. It's time for a change because maybe the player can't perform at the same level as they did at different years. It's time for a change because maybe there's just not a fit culturally or with the coaches or whatever it may be. That does happen, but I would say most players Doug. I think it's pretty rare for a player and I you know we don't say this, I think, with any sort of positive excitement, but it's pretty rare for a player to be in the same club from U8 to U18.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you probably have to, you know, figure out where you belong and that some level. That probably requires some change. Whether you kind of reach your peak of development in a certain environment and now you need to find a new environment to keep going, whether it means an environment that you're in has gone past you so you now have to go find another environment because that's gone past you. So five would be a lot to me.
Speaker 2:Three sounds maybe better.
Speaker 3:Sounds like it makes some sense, but you know lots of things can happen that change that.
Speaker 2:Well, and look at where it's most likely to happen. When does change most likely happen? One is, uh, probably whenever there's a change in competition format. So you go from 77 to 99 or 99 to 11 aside. There are changes there because you know a small club may not have enough players to accommodate, you know, as they go bigger. So that's a time where there's somewhat natural changes and this is a preview of the bulk of the rest of our discussion when you get into the 11 aside age groups at U13 and you start to see you know we've called the 13, 14 age kind of a sorting out where players decide how committed they are to soccer, what their aspiration level is.
Speaker 2:And quite honestly, if you have a group of 15 players at U11 and U12, at U13, let's just say again, very rough math five of them are going to say, hey, I really want to shoot high in soccer and it's going to be my priority. I want to play soccer and soccer alone. Five are going to say I like soccer but I'm going to do some other stuff. And five might say I'm not sure if I'm going to continue and if I do, I want to continue at sort of a low commitment level and time commitment. So you'll see a natural shift at that 13, 14 age and then you see another one but I guess we can call it in the more senior age groups, at 16, when you really start to get into the recruiting age and you see a further, generally I would say, a consolidation of talent nationally and a consolidation of talent, you know, within local environments where again, like, in theory, like is supposed to find like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think and like aspirations are normally kind of come together right. So those who you know who are like, yeah, I really want to pursue playing at the next level, and those players seem to, you know, migrate together at some level. Where at that, at those ages, sometimes you know kid who might have thought, yeah, this is. And then now I have second thoughts about this and maybe this isn't what I want to do. Uh, because there is a commitment, um, that is required to do that Um, and that's, that's a reality. So, yeah, I agree, I agree with you with those, those time periods. I think that's, I think that's right.
Speaker 2:Well, and so this will be. I've teased it twice, but maybe the official segue. You know one of the things driving this on top of the normal. You know normal stuff that drive change, which is a I'm finding players of more similar aspiration. That's one driver of change. I am falling behind, or there's players around me that are passing me. That's a driver of change. I'm not playing the position I want. I'm not getting the time I want. There's a cultural misalignment between club and coach. Whatever, all those things drive change. One of the biggest things in today's soccer world in 2025, that is also driving the change is the infamous question of what league is the club in, and that has added another layer of chaos, complexity all unintended, I think, in many ways, which is maybe that's an optimistic way of looking at it, Doug, but that has created a very, very complex and complicated environment that people are dealing with now, and we're going to talk a little bit about that in the next segment.
Speaker 1:And we'll do just that after this message from Nike.
Speaker 6:Nike is a proud sponsor of ECNL's. Nothing Can Stop what we Can Do Together to bring positive change to our communities. You can't stop sport because hashtag. You can't stop our voices. Follow Nike on Instagram, facebook and Twitter.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast. Once again, here's Christian Labors.
Speaker 2:Let's start with some facts. It's facts about what has happened and also some things specific to our platform. So, as everybody here knows, I'm assuming that the ECNL girls and boys have multiple levels of competition the ECNL at the top and the ECNL regional league, which we refer to as the next level of competition in the country and there's been a lot of movement and change on both of those levels internally at our platform. So, doug, you want to run through some of these changes by boys or girls, or do you want me to run through them?
Speaker 3:Holy cow, why don't you start?
Speaker 2:I'll start All right. So first, in the Northwest, one of the first announcements we made this period and this sort of league change, club change time period starts in January. We try and wrap it up on our end by usually end of March, no later than April 1st if possible. We'd love to end it earlier but it's always difficult because there's a lot of variables outside of our control. But this time period of January, february, march is generally when all these decisions of promotions and changes and expansions are made. So for one of the first ones we announced was the ECNL Boys Far West Conference. So it was the actual promotion of a bunch of clubs in the Oregon area that had competed in the regional leagues, had done well, had had some of those teams come into some ECNL events and match up against ECNL teams and show well. So we took that in an area that geographically we were not that deep in and added the Far West Conference for the boys. Secondly, we did a couple of promotions in the North Atlantic for the boys Delaware FC, philadelphia, ukrainians, psa, monmouth, south Jersey East Barons, all promoted out of the RL into the ECNL. And then there were some other clubs throughout the country that were promoted in various places in Connecticut, ac, Connecticut, doral in Florida, east Coast, missouri Rush, st Louis Stars. There's Highlands FC kind of a cool story Went through the tragedy of the hurricane up in Asheville and got back playing and the club has been promoted out of the Carolinas RL into the ECNL. So that's on the boys' side, into the ECNL. So that's on the on the boys side. On the girls side, california Odyssey in Northern California being promoted I think that's announced today and then Missouri Rush and West Side Alliance being promoted as well out of regional leagues in a couple different areas of the country. So I'm going to keep going on the boys side, doug, yeah, let's, let's do these and then we'll come back. All right, we'll do them all. So actually I misspoke there.
Speaker 2:Regional League we've also had a significant amount of changes. So we launched the Gulf Coast RL down in Louisiana, mississippi, a bunch of clubs coming into the RL platform in an area that we weren't. We did not have much of a presence. We added the Greater Michigan Alliance, which is deepening the league's impact with a bunch of the top clubs in Michigan coming into a regional league that, along with the Heartland and the GLA and some other leagues, comes together in a postseason. So winners at multiple of these different RLs in the Midwest all come into the postseason. So a way where we're reaching more clubs, more players and providing a pathway the Golden State and NorCal. We have two RLs in NorCal one that is connected to the NorCal Premier Soccer League, which is a league of about 80, 000 players and teams working their way up there, and one rl in norcal that is focused on ecnl clubs and deepening their player pool.
Speaker 2:Uh, those are on the boys side. Greater michigan alliance is also on the girls side, and then we have a couple more things coming in the coming weeks that aren't aren't public yet or not totally over the finish line yet, but some significant growth in the RL, some significant promotions from the RL to the ECNL. One of the cool things about the regional league is that all these regional leagues they come together in the postseason into four playoff events. So, like we're talking about Michigan, we obviously have the Heartland Regional League that goes all the way from Nebraska to Wisconsin. You have the GLA, which is in Indiana, ohio, pennsylvania. Now you have the Michigan going deep into the Michigan club market.
Speaker 2:And there's other additions there. We have lots of clubs that have been added in ones and twos to existing regional leagues around the country, but they all come together. So, no matter what regional league you're playing in, you can play for a regional league national championship, which is, I think, really cool, and we will wrap this all up. Our plan anyway is to have one with what call it the final release towards the end of March, early, early April. That sort of sums up all of the growth, change and expansion of the league and we are really excited about the, the number of clubs that have wanted to come into our platform and our and our pathway, the performance of clubs within it and, uh, you know, as you'll see when this release comes out in a couple weeks, we have significant growth and and and show really strong stability across all ECNL platforms and levels.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think the thing I would highlight there is just the clubs that have been promoted from the RL into the ECNL is something we committed to several years ago that if we were going to do an RL, that there had to be a pathway.
Speaker 3:And I think we've proven year in, year out that that's where we're going to look and see where the next upcoming clubs are and bring them into the ECNL.
Speaker 3:So I always think that's really, really cool and it it's kind of interesting because I know you were, you were in this meeting and I was in this meeting way way back. We've talked about this before when the when we were all trying to get into the Red Bull League the second year it was and I remember finding out that we were getting my club was going to get into it and and I you know how exciting that was and how it changed the face of our club and what we did and how we did it. I think that's a cool part of this and being able to grow the game more and more and get it into more areas and more ability for these clubs to to improve and get better and help, and I think that all you know trickles down to the player, so that that part of it, I think is really is really the interesting the interesting part for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean what's we are?
Speaker 2:We are one platform in the broader landscape, you know, so we can talk very knowledgeably about what's going on in our platform and what's important to us within that.
Speaker 2:And one of the things in that is the importance of rewarding performance and providing competition, and you know it's actually one of the core values of the league is to provide pathways based upon performance, because you know, as we talk about, if competition is good for individual development and team development, then it has to be good for club development. We want to have a way where a club can come into the ECNL pyramid and earn their way through it within a season to events and then post-seasons and finals, and then also season over season seasons and finals and then also, season over season, move up levels of competition based on what happens on the field. The irony of that you know if you go again, go back our history. We started with 40 clubs that were invited in by just people who wanted to play each other more in 2009. And then for many years it was a expansion process by paper of applications and then at one point way back when it was actually membership vote, then we changed that to be just board decision, because that got to be out of control.
Speaker 3:Well, the membership was then. Their vote was for their board member right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we changed it from the member clubs had to vote to approve who was added to actually know. The board representative elected by the clubs was now in that position, which was just better in every sense of governance and conflict. And then it got to a point, I don't know five years ago or so, where we said this is becoming impossible to do. In the same way, because looking at the resume of the 41st club joining the league was a heck of a lot easier than when we start looking at a league that is now you know hundreds of clubs and when you have a landscape where so many clubs are competing in so many different things. And so we said we need to actually shift how we do this to something that is based upon a known level of competition and rewards performance in that on the field and in the standings and in where players end up, not just based on paper and resumes and that sort of stuff and and you know developmental, you know treatises and whatever else. Yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 3:I mean. The reality, though, is we started the RL as a service to the clubs in the ECNLs for their second teams. I mean, that's how we started it, and then I think, what? What we realized is that the paper applications and trying to go through you know that process to your point just is not. This doesn't make sense, and part of it's because of the fragmentation, right?
Speaker 2:Because if, if we would get a paper that you know two clubs or three clubs in the same area would claim that they were responsible or largely responsible for the development of the same player, and then you'd see games, scores or events where people would say, well, we beat these guys at this event, but you know it would be the wrong team, it'd be a different level of team or it'd be a team, a game that one team was playing with an intent to win and another team was playing with an intent to get everybody and maybe players that don't play a lot in other games competition.
Speaker 2:And so we started to look and say how can we possibly judge these resumes when we can't even get a real clear answer as to was this actual game? Did this game occur? Did the game matter? Was it actually the right team that are referring to? And we said you know, what we need is we need to actually have a level of competition where we'll know because it's our competition and that way we can look at things from an apples to apples perspective. And that was then the genesis for the growth and saying let's build out the regional league to be a really robust competition. That has tremendous value in its own right and what it provides, but that also provides almost a clearinghouse where we can say that's where we're going to look for results, because we are generally going to know the level of that competition across the country because of our knowledge of the clubs.
Speaker 3:My question to you is, and I think probably the answer is different when you talk about boys versus girls, but wouldn't you say let talk about boys versus girls. But when you say you know, let's say on the girl's side first, you generally know who the 50 best clubs are, or the 40 best clubs are, but club number 51 to 200, they look all pretty similar, depending you know. So to your, your point, instead of trying to make these decisions kind of off the paper. You know, having that clearinghouse or that, that, that, uh, you know, that ability to just see it on the field is, I think, super important. But the other important, and I'll just go back and say on the boys, it's a lot harder because there's more good teams and maybe there are clubs out there Deeper player pools.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's deeper, right, so it's tougher. But the thing I always want to say, to reiterate, about the RL is it, in and of itself, is a platform that is sustainable and can provide you what you need for your players, because there is a competition, there is a pathway to post-season and there's exposure to college coaches. So all that exists within that platform in and of itself. So you get that. And then, oh, by the way, the other piece of it is that's where we're going to look to determine who should you know, who should move up. It's a hard process, it's a real hard process. It was easier at the beginning of all this, don't you think it was a little easier?
Speaker 2:although we made some, it's a bell curve. I think it was easy at the beginning. It got really hard and then I think it is. It is getting better now because we do have the ability to look at our own leagues and say, how did this club do within their league, how did they do when they went to the postseason and played the best from other leagues? And then, generally, for most, how did they do the second year? Is it sustained? Is the level of performance sustained?
Speaker 2:And then you add things like how to have individual players done. You know, because some players have moved up, you know, within a to our all the way back to the trial point. Some players have moved from a club to a club in the UCNL. That's actually not a bad thing, you know, because it documents development. You know how players that have gone straight from the RL gone straight to college, how have they done? What have they done? So all this stuff you know. So back to my sort of parabola. Here it was, it was easy, then it got really hard and I think it's getting a little more clear now because we can point to those things.
Speaker 2:And the irony in all of this is that, as we are now focusing very much, as much as we can and I know somebody out there is going to throw something at the computer saying I disagree with you, which is fine, it's not my computer you're throwing something at as we have focused on that and doubled down on that, and I think the numbers speak for themselves. I mean, we're going to have 30 plus girls clubs promoted over the last three or four years. We're probably at 50 plus on the boys side and some people have been moved down as you find the right level within that as well, and that's not a bad thing, necessarily. It's about finding the right level. But as we are really focusing on that, the landscape continues to evolve and move and right now we're in a spot where, in an attempt to grow a platform, some of the other national leagues are adding people all over the place at all sorts of different competitive levels, some of which are just not going to match up very well on the field. Where, on the one hand, we're saying you have to prove this through the competition in the regional league, because that helps to give us a better confidence level on the decision and it helps to stabilize a market and that's good for everybody player, parent and club if there's more clarity as to what level it is.
Speaker 2:It's almost like history repeats itself, because I'm sure USYS in 2009 would be very upset with the ECNL coming in and offering club spots in this new league, saying that this is disrupting the status quo. Now we are the one that is being disrupted by the significant I call it carpet bombing of additional new franchises everywhere in these other leagues, the difference being, I think, we just look at it and say we're pretty clear about what we want to do, what we believe in and what we're trying to accomplish for the sport, for our league and for the clubs in it. So it's not exactly the same, but it is definitely the biggest question right now that a lot of these clubs are facing from parents is what league are you in? And the biggest question some of them are trying to answer is what league should I be in?
Speaker 3:Just don't lie when you talk about that. You know, this is where I struggle, not trying to seem high and mighty, but I think it's one thing to say here's what we believe in and here's what we are doing to accomplish our mission and these are our values and this is why we believe in what we're doing and how we're doing it. To speak, you know, no, uh ill will against anyone else, and I mean this could go from a club or a league level. Really, yeah, you know, like I went one thing, I yeah they echo each other right.
Speaker 2:Club recruitment of players echoes to some degree league quote-unquote recruitment.
Speaker 3:I think that's right and I try to always just talk about what we're doing and what we believe and how we're going to do it and leave it at that, because the reality is probably I don't really know what maybe that other club is doing anyway, so it'd be hard for me to speak on that and it would be disingenuous to do that. I say the same thing about the league stuff. It's like you know, just don't lie. I mean, talk about what you're doing and how you believe that's the best thing, what your beliefs are, then the chips. You know people will make their decisions regardless. But I do think there's a lot of misinformation and a lot of misleading information that gets thrown out there.
Speaker 2:I think the technical term misinformation and disinformation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's frustrating. That is frustrating to me. I've been in this 30 years. You've been in this for you know, not quite that long, but close. You're a little bit, maybe more confident in your where you're at and what you're doing. And maybe there's a young person out there who's fighting and scratching and clawing and that's the way they do it, I don't know. Or a young club and they think that's the way they got to do it. I don't know. Man, just don't lie. That's all I'm saying. Just believe in what you're doing and the rest will take care of itself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean we, we talk a lot about clarity of purpose and value, and I think if you don't have those things, one one of the powers of vision and values is that it makes very difficult decisions easier. Because if you truly have a clear vision and clear values that define how you behave and how you look at the world, and you apply those metrics or those principles to a decision that is hard, almost always the decision becomes less hard. Yeah, 100%. And so, ultimately, where there is a huge challenge or hemming and hawing and stress, I would ask well, is there clarity of vision and values in the club? I also look at this from the perspective of the league, because we have tough decisions to make in all sorts of areas, from resource allocation to structure and whatever and we have to have vision and values that are clear to help us in that. In that regard, and ultimately and I think this is true in every industry if, if you are clear in those and you do a good job, so you do what you say, what you're going to do, then you do what you say and you're aligned with what your values are, then you're going to be in a good spot, whether that's a club in your development regardless of what league you're in, by the way, or whether you're a league in providing consistent service, because that's what people want. They want clarity, they want transparency and they want to have expectations that are clear and met. And I think people get caught up in all sorts of other stuff, and promises is the biggest one. You know, promises of fairyland and promises of what's going to happen next, and you know, as they say, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. You know, and it's really really challenging right now because I know a lot of clubs are trying to make good decisions on this.
Speaker 2:You know, we say all the time leagues don't develop clubs. I mean, that's one of our core values actually is that the leagues don't develop clubs. Club develop clubs and we need to support the people that do the work. That's core to the DNA of our league is to support the clubs because the clubs do the work, to this. The dna of our league is to support the clubs because the clubs do the work and I think a lot of times people may not recognize that 90 of what your players are gonna out, are gonna do, is gonna be determined by them in your environment of training and the league is gonna add, you know some, you know ice cream on top or a cherry on top or whatever.
Speaker 2:The league's going to add some things that can help or or hinder. Uh, but you need to focus first and foremost on what do you believe and what's going on in your own environment before the league? Even you know matters that much. The league is a shortcut in some ways. What I mean by that is like the league is a shortcut to your.
Speaker 3:It could be lazy yeah, mean it can be lazy, for sure. I think even Matt Crocker said this US Soccer, let's see, is he the sporting director? The sporting director, yeah, sporting director. Yeah, when he was on the last podcast. We did the interview at the symposium. He even said, as it relates to US Soccer and national teams, he knows that 95% of the work is done at the club level and I think we know that and we've always known that. Which is honestly probably the fuel that allowed this league to start and go is that we recognize that from the beginning. We all believe that we were all doing it, so we knew all too well. Right, it's hard to cut through the misinformation and disinformation. It's right, it's hard to cut through the misinformation and disinformation. It's hard and in a lot of ways it mirrors, like society. It's just hard societally right now to do that as well. Right, because there's so much access to information.
Speaker 2:We're not far away from deep fakes and cheap fakes coming here in the leagues.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, I respect those people who say this is what we believe, this is what we're trying to do, and here's what we're going to do for you to try to achieve that. That's it, that's where it is, and then you're, then you put your money where your mouth is and it works out for some people. It doesn't work out for other people. That's a, that's a fact and that's okay. But that's how I think, how you do it. It's really hard to uh, because some of this is so subjective and in in ways that it can be really hard to kind of determine. You know, I think we you and I were talking about the car, the car example, right, the uh yeah, well, let's, let's zoom out on like on this, because I think that's where you're going on this.
Speaker 2:This is, in some ways, indicative of an industry that is maturing, and I know some people hate to call you got the number but if you add all sports together, you're probably right, and one of the realities of that is it's youth sports.
Speaker 2:So it's not like widgets, it's not like a product in that sense, and there are different things that need to apply to it that I think probably have to impact some of the economics and becoming more and more competitive. And the example you're referencing is we talked about the premium car market, right, yeah? And so whether you're looking to buy a Cadillac, a BMW, a Mercedes, an Audi, whatever, you probably drive a fancier car. Whatever the fancy car is, the reality is there's always going to be choices. A fancy car is the reality is there's always going to be choices. And you know the car manufacturers try and maximize the value of the product that they provide to capture market share. But there's always going to be choices.
Speaker 2:And that's what's happening in soccer is there's going to be more and more choices. And, in general, in theory, choice of places to play is good for the consumer. You go, we go, all the way back to tryouts. It's good for players to be able to choose. Where do I think is the best place for me to develop? Where do I think is the best fit for me? That's a positive thing, and there are some people that say, well, that should exist at the club level and it does and it has forever Now it's existing at the league level and there's choices of leagues and where people want to go in that regard.
Speaker 2:And ultimately, you know, I do think we would like to see a little bit more clear of a pathway of competition levels, which is, again, a league is a proxy for that the various competition levels, so as players move up the pyramid that it's the club choice of where to go is always there, but there there's more clarity on what really is the top level of competition, because I think that's where the league argument right now makes it a little bit more difficult for the family and the player.
Speaker 2:But at the same time there's going to be more and more choice and you know, we see that also in the mentality of of of clubs who and I think and I'll speak in generalities here there is no club in the country, in any market, that has a right to to have a bunch of players or to have the most players or the best players. Players are going to choose and in a competitive marketplace with multiple good products or good clubs, you're always going to see players that find the other, the other organization, to be a better fit, no matter what you do, and I think that increasing competition is something that soccer is struggling to deal with right now, and that's maybe adding to the temperature in the room.
Speaker 3:Yes, I don't know if I could say it better Everybody's fighting for the same players. Maybe looking to these leagues to differentiate them in that fight for players?
Speaker 2:yeah, on that note, like we go back to that, we said that it never really works out for the club hopper right and again, that doesn't mean that changing from one club to another is not a good thing and not something that needs to be done. At times times and we went through periods where that is the case. But I think the same scenario again it echoes is at the league level. There are times when clubs should make decisions to go to a different league. If a club is constantly looking at the, the other options, and every year there's a new shiny acronym, that's probably not going to work out for the club, which we go back to again. What is the vision? What is matters to you from a values perspective? Find that and stay there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think philosophical alignment is what it is. It's no different than if you work somewhere and you are aligned with them philosophically, then that's a good place to work, or school, or choosing a school where you're aligned philosophically. When you become not aligned philosophically, then it's probably time for you to go. We have to continue to do a great job of saying to people this is what we believe and what we're trying to do, and we have to do that. So does everyone else.
Speaker 1:The March 19 edition of Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast will continue after this message from two ECNL corporate partners. Did you know ECNL provides free recovery sessions? Ecnl has partnered with MarkPro, a staple for recovery in professional sports. Markpro is a unique, safe, portable e-stem device that feeds sore muscles and removes metabolic waste. Stop by the recovery zone during your next event.
Speaker 1:The ECNL is pleased to announce QuickGoal as the official goal provider and partner for ECNL Girls and ECNL Boys, a new partnership created to support the growth and development of the country's top players, clubs and coaches At all national events, including national playoffs and national finals. The Quick Goal Coaches Corner will provide hospitality and social space for ECNL Girls, ecnl Boys and collegiate coaches. Quick Goal will also be the presenting sponsor of the national championship-winning ECNL girls and ECNL boys coaches of the year and the ECNL girls and ECNL boys goals of the year. Quick Goal looks forward to helping the ECNL continue to elevate the standards of youth soccer and provide more opportunities to players on and off the field in the coming years. Welcome back to Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast. Doug Bracken begins segment three with a question for Christian Labors.
Speaker 3:Here's a question I had for you in all this. Honestly, when you and I got started, it was about tournaments.
Speaker 2:Getting into the right showcase tournament.
Speaker 3:Yes, what changed to make it?
Speaker 2:What changed that made leagues the driving factor?
Speaker 3:Do you think that what we did, or what the US Development Academy did on the boys' side, was the driver of that?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest driver was the change from, fundamentally, usys was a team-based competition and as, again, as the sport grew and everybody who throws things at a wall about what they don't like has to recognize sort of the evolution and growth that the sport has gone through as it's as it's grown financially, as it's grown in participation, as it's grown in infrastructure and all in an opportunity is that when club based leagues became a thing and they became a thing partially because the team based promotion and team based access to events was starting to create some bizarre incentives of how to win at a young age in order to ensure that you get into the right things that then winning there gets you into the right things and it was creating some weird incentives and things that were not going to probably help in development of players.
Speaker 2:But as soon as club-based things became a focus, I think that changed one variable. I think that the next one was and this, you know we didn't have this grand vision at the time, but I remember when we went to the first couple of years of the ECNL, we just took teams to existing events and instead of those events every year having to say, well, I hope everybody that I want applies so I can accept them, and then the teams having to say, well, I hope I get accepted by this event because it's a big part of our desired calendar. By this event, because it's a big part of our desired calendar, we went and said, hey, do you want 40 of the top clubs in the country at three age groups so that we're unionized yeah, to some degree.
Speaker 2:yeah, so we can bring you 120 of the best teams in the country at you 15, 16 and 17. Would you guarantee them all in and let us at least dictate who plays who? And we didn't even negotiate a discounted fee, we just said they'll pay you directly the full fright. We just want to control who plays who and the scheduling. And that worked right. And then that, I think, was an eye-opening moment of like, well, wait a minute, if we can do this to somebody's event and bring them there, we can bring this to our own event and then control more things around it. Because I think one of the one of the events we went to at the time and we said, hey, well, can we sell a shirt? And they said no. And then we said, well, that's a problem, because you know we want to get some branding out there. And you know we want to get some branding out there. And you know, if we're going to bring all these teams and we can't get our brand out there, then we need to maybe look at our own event.
Speaker 2:But I think it was a combination of that, the shift from team-based to club-based, because that also then provided certain stability. And then you know, I think you know your comment of unionization or at least collective bargaining to some degree, of saying let's all go somewhere. And as I say that, I'll go back to our values. Our first value is youth soccer should be led by youth soccer people, right, and I think that was fundamentally behind that decision of saying, hey, all of us in a room, let's go do something together because we know what our clubs and our teams need and want and let's go and create it.
Speaker 2:That's kind of what changed that. You know you could make an argument that maybe to some degree would American soccer in 2025, with more team-based competition and promotion, would it be in a better spot than team-based promotion and competition was in 2000? And I think you could probably say yes, because the coaching education is better. There's probably an average increase in just knowledge of the game from even the parent group. So some of the really weird things that you saw just kicking, running and fast kids up front in the back.
Speaker 3:I mean more players too, and more more players who played at a high level are coming into coaching as well. You would agree with that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So some of these variables may change now, but there's tremendous value to a club-based system as well, because that allows for the movement of the player up and down age groups easier, up and down levels easier, it allows for more consistency of experience and those things are all very good for player development. So the game has shifted to a club-based model, is driving the majority of decisions, and then that also then goes back to okay, well, what league is my club in? And then, if we wrap it all the way back up with a bow, that's where we believe that providing a pathway for clubs to come in and then move their way up based on performance is really, really important, because competition is good for everybody. It doesn't mean that it's going to be simple, it doesn't mean that there's going to be overly bright lines at every step along the way, but it is sort of our attempt to match the benefits of competition with the benefits of stability of a club based system. And ironically, now we are standing in that space very, very differently than you know. You go back. You know the change is happening now because if the Development Academy was the first big club-based National League, the ECNL was the second. Right now there's four or five that are in some way attempting to be National Leagues, or say they're National Leagues, or have clubs in a variety of locations. Many of them have just rebranded and changed their name, with the exact same program and the exact same leaders. It's all, I think, an indication of the value and the impact of the national, club-based league status.
Speaker 2:And then the question goes back to you. Given that this is a competitive market and given that these other organizations and leagues exist, it is incumbent upon all of them, us included, to say well, who are we, what do we stand for, what are we going after and how good is the product? Because, again, in a maturing industry, competition is a fact of life and we've gotten better through competition throughout our history. We will continue to get better because we're going to embrace it, because we're going to embrace it, but we're going to embrace it under the auspices of our values of youth soccer led by youth soccer people. Leagues don't develop players, clubs do we serve them.
Speaker 2:Competition and pathways must be inherent in everything we do, because we celebrate merit, all those values that we talk about at every AGM. They're not just phrases. There are things that are embedded in our structure and our decisions, and you can see that even in these press releases. I mean our joke, the joke of the last several years is, you know, the majority of soccer press releases now are a bunch of words that don't say anything, right, and I would like to think that if you look at our press releases on the clubs that we've promoted, we're pointing to performance and achievement and things within our own platform to say that's the way you get move up, that's the way you develop and that's basically how you create stability, and stability is necessary for growth of anything.
Speaker 3:That's so. So that was a good one. I'm going to give you another one to wrap this thing up, and that is to me. I listened to you right there and you're talking to the clubs. Now let's talk to the player or the family who's trying to decide where they go, and that probably encompasses, you know, the club they go to, and then the league and opportunities that that that will be provided them. What do you say to them?
Speaker 2:I say it varies to some degree by age. I mean, the younger you go, the more important the coaches. The coach is always important, but the younger you go, the more. That is the sole thing that is important. But I think it's a similar thing that you have to find people of similar aspiration. So if you're a player who dreams of doing big things and has big goals, then you need to be around other players that are similar and you need to be in an environment that has, I would say, some sort of track record of supporting that journey, because anybody can talk about what they want to do.
Speaker 2:I think you should look to see has this actually happened in this organization? And then, like anything else I mean this is we say soccer is a relationship business. Again, it's changing a little bit as various economic forces come in, but it's fundamentally a relationship business and the relationship between the player and the coach and the club. You have to have a good sense for that and if you go somewhere where you trust that the person has your best interest at heart in helping you achieve your goal, then that's where you should go, because that's the one thing that you're going to have the most ability to measure in terms of is this accurate and is this true? Because you can look at all sorts of again press releases, promises, statements, misinformation, disinformation At a league level.
Speaker 2:You can have a certain degree at the marketing level of a club this looks cool and trendy and this is a promise and that but you have to be able to sit down with people and you have to go into their environment. Actually, you have to be able to sit down with people and you have to go into their environment. Actually. I think if you can go train with somebody, I'm a big fan. I don't, I don't like tryouts where you just try out. I like I like tryouts where kids come and they jump into training so the player can see what is a training actually like, how does the coach engage and talk, and then the coach and the club can see how does this player respond to instruction.
Speaker 2:How do they respond to this environment, as opposed to you know something where everybody sits back?
Speaker 2:with their clipboard and their hands here and it's sort of a sterile environment. But it doesn't. I think that doesn't let the player see what the environment is. You know, none of those things, unfortunately, are bright lines right. But I think league is a metric for ambition to some degree. That's good, right. You can say, hey, if a club is in the ECNL or the ECNL Regional League, they're aspiring to compete at the highest level that they can. That's going to require a certain amount of size, stability, resources. That's not going to tell you anything about the coaching and the environment, the values at that club and the way that you want to play or anything like that. You have to test that out yourself and I think you can do that by feel better than you can do that by just listen to somebody talk. What would you say?
Speaker 3:to that, I agree. I just I always think you need to align your aspirations with those that that are similar, and you have to know what. Interesting, because we had this conversation at the dinner table the other night. It was about another topic, where we talked about how you have to understand what you want and what you believe in, and you have to align yourself with people who have the same thought. And it doesn't mean you can't talk to other people, look at other. You know other things, but you have to know what your. You know what your beliefs are and what your values are, and you have to align yourself with other people. So I agree with that.
Speaker 3:I think it's important to say that, to know what, what are you about and what are you going to do. And then, if I say, well, this is what we're about and this is what we believe in, for example, if we're, as the ECNL are, going to say, we believe that youth soccer should be run by youth soccer people, then we have to put our money where our mouth is and do it, and which I think we've done. You're a soccer person, I'm a soccer person, everybody on our board is a soccer person. Most of the people on our staff are soccer people, right? So that's the next piece of it. Do you have a track record of doing what you're saying?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, yeah, yeah, it's one thing to say it, then you got to do it. And that's where I think you have to look at what has happened here in the past. Has this happened or is this just a fantasy land? But I think the other value to that and this I think is true for players within clubs and it's also true for clubs within leagues is that in a normal competitive industry there's going to be ups, downs, challenges, opportunities, everything, and so, in the same way that you know, one of the criticisms of the NIL era of college sports is that you know, if it doesn't work out, somebody just jumps ship to the next school, right. And one of the criticisms directed towards the club hopper in youth soccer is hey, it doesn't work out in one place, you change, it doesn't work out there, you change, it doesn't work out there, you change At some point. It's not there, maybe it's you. Yeah, right. And again, if that's the way that clubs look at leagues, it's going to be hard.
Speaker 2:But if you can be aligned and say I believe in what these people, this organization says and does, well, then it's the same way that visions and values help make decisions simpler. Alignment in that way also helps you go through the inevitable ups and downs and still be on a trajectory that you know business school will call up. And to the right, because no matter what you're going to look and say, you know what. These are the people that believe what I believe. We're going to go through this together and that's how, over time, you build incredible things, because anybody can pop up and anybody can make a promise.
Speaker 2:Anybody can be a short-term pop. It's a very different thing to sustain leadership and sustain excellence and sustain growth over time, because that requires alignment and stability and innovation consistently, year after year after year and ultimately that's again past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior and people that don't align with others in vision and stay with them through that miss out. I think Naval Ravikant is a big Silicon Valley, I think investor, and one of the quotes I saw from him once that was unbelievable is the best things in life are always long term. Once that was unbelievable is the best things in life are always long-term. So, whether that's financial investments, whether that's personal relationships, whether that's business growth, if you don't have a long-term time horizon, you miss out on all of the best opportunities.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's the difference between fun and happiness.
Speaker 2:There we go, there we go. That's a way to make it nicer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I use smaller words than you, no, but you just made it feel better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, and we'll be right back with Bracken's Brain.
Speaker 6:Buster. Soccercom is proud to partner with the ECNL to support the continued development of soccer in the US at the highest levels. We've been delivering quality soccer equipment and apparel to players, fans and coaches since 1984. Living and breathing the beautiful game ourselves. Our goal at Soccercom is to inspire you to play better, cheer louder and have more fun. Visit Soccercom today to check out our unmatched selection of gear, expert advice and stories of greatness at every level of the game.
Speaker 3:Time for Bracken's Brain Buster. Let's do it. We got Jacob and Reed to join in on this, as we always do.
Speaker 2:The powers behind the camera and the audio. Jacob and Reed.
Speaker 3:We did our last couple podcasts. We recorded them when we were at the symposium, so we haven't been on here in a while, and so, in that spirit, my question today is what are your favorite podcasts and why? Christian, don't give me like 40. Give me a couple.
Speaker 2:All right, I'm going to go, I'm going to go you first today.
Speaker 2:Me first. I never go first. I know You're welcome. I'm going to give you a couple Number one. First one I'll give you a little shout to Ryan Hawk and the Learning Leader. He came to the symposium a couple of years ago. Interviews leaders in all fields sports, business, military, everything. Really interesting guy. Really enjoyed that podcast a lot. Second one I'm going to give you is Founders by a guy, david Senra, I believe his name is. He basically goes through books, autobiographies and biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs and then basically talks through what he's learned from them and compares and contrasts various entrepreneurs and their path and their journeys with others. Really really interesting. And then you know, sometimes, just because I want to get my head into a different space I listen to, we have Ways of Making you Talk which is a World War II historical deep dive into all sorts of parts of World War II which I just find interesting sometimes.
Speaker 3:Okay, and just going to challenge you two with your choices. We're going to go Age Before Beauty and go with Jacob. Well, that's a problem there, because I have both Age and Beauty on read. We're going to go age before beauty and go with Jacob.
Speaker 4:Well, that's a problem there, cause I have both age and beauty on read.
Speaker 2:Hey, there we go, that's true.
Speaker 3:We're on a bright long future.
Speaker 2:You're a time billionaire, as they say, read a time billionaire.
Speaker 3:We're on video now, so we everybody knows I'm going to give us on. Youtube People. Come find us on YouTube you should.
Speaker 4:I'm gonna give find us on youtube. People come find us on you should. Yeah, I'm gonna give uh shouts to two podcasts that I really enjoy. One is small town murder. It's a podcast that laura and I listen to on our long drives whenever we have them, and it's about the just like it says murder cases from small towns, where negativity in the world, jacob, you gotta add.
Speaker 4:Well, it's run by two comedians and they make fun of people who commit crimes and are stupid about it, and so it's really funny and it's about, uh, these crimes that happen in towns of like 1 000 people. So I think they're really interesting and they're like three hours long, so you've got a long. You've got a long time to listen to them, uh. And then the second is, uh, a music podcast called state of the scene. I, I am big into punk rock, heavy metal music and these are the two go-to people for anybody in that scene. They do music reviews, they do news, new singles, things like that, and so they are a weekly listen for me and have inspired me to create multiple album of the year rankings and keep track of every album that I listen to.
Speaker 3:All right, I think that's pretty good.
Speaker 5:No pressure Reid First off the correct answer Breaking the Line. There you go, reed.
Speaker 3:Love it.
Speaker 5:Winner. Now, if I had to say Winner, winner, chicken dinner, I had to choose the second one, which, keep in mind, there's a gap between first place and second place. But if I had to choose, there's one called Up and Vanished and it's similar, jacob, to what you said. It's kind of like a small-town murder mystery.
Speaker 3:Definitely listen to that before. It's a good one, I concur.
Speaker 5:But yeah, not a huge podcast guy, but I think stuff like that's just really interesting to listen to, to see where it goes.
Speaker 3:Great shout on Breaking the Line.
Speaker 2:Definite gold star for uh reid today five stars, five stars, and click down to subscribe, something like that.
Speaker 3:I think that's what you're supposed to say yeah, mine, I always listen the weekly with john stewart. John stewart is incredibly funny and he always, uh, is willing to have anybody on and have any conversation uh with them, which is which I I think I respect that we need to have more conversations with each other, even if we disagree. So I like that. And then, um, big sports. So I'll listen to, like the, you know they'll do a best of the day dan patrick show or best of the day colin cowherd, you know, and that's how I catch up with my sports. So those are my, those are my go-tos. Lately I've been walking on the Stairmaster so I've been getting into a lot of podcasts.
Speaker 2:There, you go.
Speaker 6:Yep, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's kind of weird to walk on some stairs that actually don't go anywhere.
Speaker 2:See, this is this. Is you know, you're old when the Stairmaster becomes an exercise tool.
Speaker 3:That's so true, so true. I'm leaning into it. That's all right. So am I. So am I.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to this edition of Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast. Don't forget we want your questions. Send them in at info at the ECNLcom. That's info at the ECNLcom. Thank you for listening to Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast and remember, if you have a question that you want answered on Breaking the Line the ECNL podcast, email us at info at the ECNLcom.