Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
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Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
The Pre-ECNL and Zone 1: Balancing Development with Competition | Ep. 123
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Breaking the Line, the ECNL Podcast, welcomes newly-hired Pre-ECNL Commissioners Bobby Reiss and Ruairi McGuinness to the airwaves for a riveting discussion surrounding the ECNL’s entry into Zone 1: the Pre-ECNL.
ECNL President Christian Lavers sits down with Reiss and Ruari to dive into exactly what the Pre-ECNL is, what the ECNL has for the Pre-ECNL platform this upcoming season, how the ECNL plans to balance atheltes’ desire to win with the need for development, especially in Zone 1, and so much more.
As always, make sure to submit any questions to https://ecnl.info/BTL-Questions, to subscribe to Breaking the Line on YouTube, and to follow the ECNL on all social channels.
This is the August 20, 2025 edition of Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast. This discussion, led by Christian Labers, the president and CEO of the ECNL, christian will visit with the recently named pre-ECNL commissioners, rory McGinnis and Bobby Rees. I'll leave deeper introductions to both Rory and Bobby to two Christian labors and hand over the microphone to Christian right now.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you very much for that introduction, dean. And here we are with a couple of new guys here. Mr Bracken is not with us on this podcast because he is out on vacation, which is a skill that Doug Bracken has is scheduling periodic vacations to get away. It does a good job at that, which is said honestly and jealously at the same time, and we got two guys here that are first time podcast appearances. We're going to make sure that they listen to the podcast moving forward, because it's I think it's part of the job. Now, unfortunately, rory and Bobby, we're going to take about an hour of your time every other week but introducing our new pre-ECNL commissioners, rory McGinnis and Bobby Reese, so I'll turn it over to you guys one at a time. We'll start out on the West Coast with a guy with the most immaculately manicured beard that you will ever see, bobby Reese, here in San Diego. Bobby, you want to give a little introduction of yourself, your background.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks, christian, excited, happy to obviously be here and get going, and it's been great working with, obviously, you and Rory, just in the what I think, two days that I've been officially in the role. Yeah, a little bit about me. I've been at formerly San Diego surf in a couple of different capacities for the past probably seven years. Started as a coach in what was you know the NPL days that then transitioned into the RL director coach, helping with the ECNL, which then transitioned about four years ago into a general manager role at San Diego Surf, working closely with the director of coaching there and was in that role, and then, obviously, next iteration for me was taking on the role with your organization, the ECNL, specifically the pre-ECNL. A little bit about our sorry, our, our not, yeah, you're right, you're right, not yours Always thought highly of the ECNL and working with them, obviously being in the lead with the boys and the girls at San Diego surf and working with your team in the way that they did things and so in the league with the boys and the girls at San Diego surf and working with your team in the way that they did things, and so, in the opportunity presented itself, it was, it was a no brainer for me and specific to this age group.
Speaker 3:I've seen, I've been able to see kind of the different iterations of this in the Southern California scene, from no pre ECNL to, I think, now in its fourth year and kind of watching it professionalize and grow and gain momentum, which has been awesome, and I think it's a. What was exciting for me was the particular age group right. I think that what comes to mind for me is if you go to any top elite youth event, whether that's a surf cup, a Dallas cup, anything in between, and you go and watch a U11, u12, like semi-final final, those are some of the most exciting games that you'll see. Working with that age group is obviously something that's going to be very exciting for me. So happy to be here.
Speaker 2:Thank you, and we'll talk a little bit about the reason why we created these positions, what we're hoping to do, some other announcement breaking today on this stuff as well, as we get into this. But I'll also turn it over to Rory McGinnis here day on this stuff as well, as we get into this. But I'll also turn it over to rory mcginnis here. Rory's been in the league as well for a long time, also did some work in the league as our girls national selection director, helping to identify players for the nsg games, um in the ec, now in the regional league all over the country in the conference cup. Rory had his, his foot in the water in the ec now and now he's jumped fully in. Rory McGinnis.
Speaker 4:How do I follow that perfect beard? By the way, my God.
Speaker 2:You're very well shaved. Bobby is very well manicured.
Speaker 4:I'm trying so hard, bobby. I'll try to follow that as best I can. We've talked so many times. Yeah, rory McGinnis, from East Meadow, long Island, new York, by way of Luton Town in London, england, by virtue of Northern Ireland, yeah, just a fantastic opportunity right here. We are so welcoming to the opportunity to grow this space, to give more soccer, to extend the opportunity to our families and our membership in our member clubs in the pre-ECL space and give them their first opportunity, their first impression of what's going to be their journey moving forward.
Speaker 2:I'll set the stage here a little bit and then we can just open up on some topics, because you guys are going to be the boots on the ground and the arms and legs doing the lion's share of work and growing this platform. We announced, you guys, I think, less than a month ago. We probably announced the creation of the pre-ECL commissioners. In some ways it's a natural evolution to the league. If you go back four years, we may not have had any formal pre-ECL competitions. If you go way back, like 10 years ago, we used to allow clubs in the league to designate pre-ECNL tournaments. I don't even know if, rory, you were around back in the day, but if they wanted to do something in 11, 12 age group in a tournament, we let them do that as long as it was only ECNL clubs playing, and that was because we had no involvement in these age groups at all, just because it wasn't where the league started and where people wanted to put their focus as far as clubs go.
Speaker 2:But as we've grown and as the game has evolved, what became clear to us is that there's a real need and opportunity to improve what exists in the U12 and below age groups. You know what I think the Federation will call zone one, and we decided that we are now at a point, with the scale and scope, that we can do things and put resources into this age group to help our clubs move the needle and help them move forward the training and competition space for these younger players, these 9v9s and 7v7s, and we can even talk about those playing formats to some degree if we want. I'll start with asking you guys what you want to accomplish in these roles, with the basic caveat first, that what we're not trying to do in this space is treat these players like professional players or treat them like they're under 18 players or do anything that's not developmentally appropriate in terms of their age. What we are trying to do is improve the daily environment for those players. Our impact is obviously through competition and the link from competition into training, which is the job of the clubs.
Speaker 2:What are you guys most excited about? How are you guys going to start in this position? Because, rory, you've been, you're less than two weeks, maybe two weeks into this. Bobby, you're two weeks into this. Bobby, you're two days into this. So it's very blank canvas at this point yeah, I think so.
Speaker 4:I mean bobby puts so very well, eloquently, all the time. But we are trying to make sure the standards are appropriate the standards for game time, let half lengths, the correct size of field, all those things that are appropriate to the development nature of moving forward. But we're also trying to make sure that there's a correct competitive standard, the ultimate, the absolute best, the best games you're going to possibly have in your weekend with no need to go into an environment elsewhere locally to play other games. So that's what we're trying to achieve.
Speaker 3:I'll piggyback there, rory. You know, maybe this spurs into some more conversation in context, we can debate some of this. But I think, naturally, when you look at the evolution of us soccer, right, um, the player, um, naturally, I think and you guys both know this in running clubs, I think, naturally you tend to jump into a club and you tend to focus on older age groups. Right, your top coaches are typically coaching, maybe in your U19s, u17s, your more elite level coaches, and I think, as I've seen, my experience would tell me that it's not that you can't have your elite level coaches in those age groups, but I think you find some of the clubs that are doing it best are putting more of an emphasis on their, on their foundational players, like your zone one. Maybe that means your top coaches are there, maybe that means, uh, it's the way that you um set up your club in terms of directors or you know that sort of thing.
Speaker 3:But I think, um, the pre-CNL for me is kind of the next iteration of development when it comes to hey, you know, we've obviously gotten good momentum in the U13 to U19, particularly obviously in the ECNL, and this is the next iteration of going. How do we make sure that we're also providing the right environment and pathway platform, as Rory mentioned all the different parameters that help kids develop. I think we're just. It shows that we can. Okay, you know we've done a decent job. We're not perfect by any means, but now we can start to take it a step back, if you will when I say back, I mean younger and start to develop those kids and put those kids in environments a little bit earlier than we typically have.
Speaker 4:Well, I think you're speaking to the choir a little bit, because I believe Christian is working with U8 boys in San Diego. Well, I, the U8 or U9.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure what the age group is because it's all messed up by calendar year and we've talked about this before. When you're in and around those families and kids, it does give you a different perspective of it. And so I think if you look at sort of the reshape or revamp of the American youth soccer landscape over the last 15 years, it started at the older age groups and really it was U16 and U18 when the DA boys was first targeted, then it shifted down to 14, then filled in the gaps. Obviously ECNL comes in and then there's been a great consolidation of talent across those leagues and those clubs and the regional league expanding into that, and that's where a lot of the change has occurred Now, as that is solidifying and consolidating from our perspective.
Speaker 2:We look down at U12 and below and the reality to your point, bobby, is most people get super excited about the older age groups. It is a completely different skill, I would say, to coach a U18 team than to coach a U8 team, and I remember Ian Barker, who was my college coach back in the day and director of United Soccer Coaches education for a while. He used to make the point that if we really want to talk about development. We should put the best coaches with the youngest ages to talk about development. We should put the best coaches with the youngest ages and I guess I'll ask you guys to respond to this, because I think there's a lot of people who would agree with the fact that if kids don't have a really good base of skill and ideas by the time they reach under 13, the ability to change and improve after that is significantly different than it is to change before that.
Speaker 3:I would agree, christian, and I think that, again, not a massive sample size when it comes to the nation, but obviously, being in the West and seeing some of these top clubs that are competing in the league and where they're placing some of their emphasis, I think if you talk to a lot of directors, they would tell you that at some point in time they decided to take a step back and look at who they were placing in the youngers and how they were developing those kids. And really, when you look at that setup it, I mean it makes complete sense. I think the fear of that, maybe with certain clubs or individuals, is, you know, coming in and, okay, I want to win and I want to win now. I don't want to develop kids at 11 and 12 to then win in three or four years. But the you know, the way that I would look at that would be you know what's really your foundation for what you're building going forward, right. And so all that loops back into what I think the pre-ECNL can help provide.
Speaker 3:I won't dive too much into this, but I think devil's advocate might tell you well, okay, really we're going to do, you know, we're going to do pre-ECNL at these age groups. Is that necessary? Let these kids play local, let them play with their friends, and I think that's an important thing to take into consideration. But the other piece of that is I think that, societally, as it comes to soccer in America, I don't think a lot of our kids are just playing in the streets. Small-sided pickup. Rory, I'd love to get your opinion on kind of what you know. Maybe your upbringing was like in that regard. But I think what a league does, is it? It establishes the structure and environment for those kids to then go play and do that, and without the league and without the right uh you know system in place, or guardrails, if you will, I don't think that we can get those kids in that environment to help them develop, because I don't know that they're doing it outside of the league is, I guess, where I sit.
Speaker 2:I would add to that and, rory, you can jump in is that the format and the way we envision this is going to vary location by location, based on what the clubs want, what the realities of geography are. Again, we're not looking at having kids go on these major road trips. That's not the intent at all. In some places our pre-ECL leagues are supplemental, which is they're going to add 10, 15 games a year that, to Rory, your point earlier, are the absolute best games that those kids are going to play in terms of competitive level and challenge. And then they're going to play in local leagues for a lot of other games where the level of competition is lower and those different types of resistance are important. And right now, in areas where we do that, the reality is those kids may not be getting enough resistance in the games that they get just within their local league, so they need that In other areas.
Speaker 2:Going back to the fact that so much attention and resources has been placed on the older age groups for so long as simple as it sounds, having a coherent schedule structure, having the right size fields and the right size goals, having lines on the fields, having referees show up on time, having groups of players and teams that are actually playing, to try and play soccer, not just run around and kick people. Those things are. They still need significant improvement and I would call the average U11 environment and by having some specific people like you and the rest of our staff that will support you in putting those standards in and making sure they're enforced, we really hope to provide a much better competition experience for whatever number of games these these kids are going to play within the pre-ecl and in addition to whatever else they're playing. Where you got any thoughts on that?
Speaker 4:I think we're talking a lot about game models, club synergy models, developmental processes versus winning, which is another segue for what we need to talk about today. For sure, Going back to what you asked, Bobby, I think the stat is 80% differential between free play for a European kid and a U a US kid. I think that's that.
Speaker 2:So you're saying a European kid plays 80% more of their time.
Speaker 4:Even in this current climate. Really that's the current trend. So when you love the game that much, you want the game that much, you live the game that much, you want to win the game that much, which I think there's a shift between what we should be trying to do here a little bit in our current climate, in the pre-ECNL platform, which is basically saying you know, development is also winning, development is also teaching your kids to win. What does that mean? Scoring goals, celebrating goals? You know, winning the game. I think we've lost touch with that reality.
Speaker 1:Rory McGinnis opens up the perfect opportunity for us to take our first break to recognize the corporate partners of the ECNL. But when we return, Christian and Rory and Bobby will dive into the creation of the pre-ECNL cups.
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Speaker 1:Welcome back to the April 20, 2025 edition of Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast, as I turn it back over to Christian Lavers.
Speaker 2:This podcast releasing on Wednesday, august 20th, and today we also are announcing the creation of the first ever pre-ECL Cups, which are events, tournaments that are going to be U12 and younger, that the ECL will run, where players and teams will show up and they will play for a trophy and a tournament championship over the course of that two or three day event, and we're really excited about this. I think we're announcing five total, maybe six actually if you count the North Carolina event, which is goes older age groups as well. We're excited about this because, to your point, rory, when you look, if you work with young kids and a lot of people with opinions about what goes on at U11, U12 or U10, they actually don't spend any time down there, whether they're academic or whether they're just coaching in older age groups. But if you're working with those kids and Bobby, you said it and I always used to say something similar watching like an indoor tournament in Wisconsin, you know, i f you watch the U10s, u11s, every goal is the goal of a lifetime.
Speaker 2:Every game is the World Cup final, and I say that in a positive way, because of the emotion, the excitement, the thrill. What those players want to do is play for winning, and I think we're going to embrace that with the pre-ECNL Cups, not because winning is the only thing that matters, not because winning is more important than development, but because it is to your point, rory. I think we all believe the country here has gone way too far in separating competitive performance and instinct and winning from development, and I actually believe that the coaches and clubs in our league are thoroughly informed and aware of how to develop players and teach them for long term success, while also embracing the fun and excitement of winning in the short term.
Speaker 4:I think I take my, my nephew's team from my skill in town and walk in here and just be totally different in terms of their competitive value and their want to win. It's from Northern Ireland. It's far different than what we're teaching right now. They're a different breed. They want to win. That's what they want to do. They want the medal. But our choice and our want and Bobby agrees, we've spoke eloquently about this is our want to make sure the developmental process is still intact, but it should not be the overriding effect.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, Roy. I think what comes to mind for me is maybe you can, if I dumb this down a little bit I think winning the conversation around winning it allows you to. There's also learning in that, in terms of where you are versus your peers, where you are in life, I think if you take, take soccer out of it right, and that you just talk about the natural development of an individual or an adolescent at that age, I think the idea of having parameters or a gauge of where you are, again, versus your peers or within a team or in society, I think there's learning that comes with that. That's important. By no means am I, you know, professional in that world, but when I think about that, that's what comes to mind.
Speaker 3:I think ages, the age range, those adolescents at that time are looking for feedback from coaches, peers, games, trainings, et cetera, to get a better understanding of who they are, what works, what doesn't work. And that's where I go. I think we to your point, Christian I think we get really caught up in just this, this idea of winning. And don't get me wrong, there's individuals that out there and we've all seen them that coach just to win, and it's this crazy chaos and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But back to your point the majority of the professionals in this league that are doing this the right way, I really think would echo that same sentiment of what winning provides for the players and the team.
Speaker 4:It's not indifferent though, bobby right. So if you think about what's happening in the rest of the world and top academies throughout the country, our country, top academies throughout europe we're talking about, you know, real top academies like barcelona, espanol, chelsea, it's. It's a different environment. It is be the be all end like, be the most entirely top competitor, and I don't think we have a concept of that here because we're so in-depth on allowing players to develop. But I mean, there are some great stories of kids playing in Chelsea Academy, getting signed for different money at U10, u11, u12. You know it's. I mean, we have to acknowledge the fact that teaching development is one thing. Teaching winning is another thing. You have to understand that teaching winning and being competitive is a fantastic story.
Speaker 2:And, by the way, that fantastic story and the excitement that's surrounded is what keep kids involved in sport, because they like it and it's fun and it's what makes I look at. If we want to grow culture in this soccer culture in this country, you want more families excited about soccer. You want more families having a great weekend watching their son or daughter playing their son or daughter having a great experience. And to your point on that, Rory, you know the odds of anyone being signed at a young age and being a pro is like 0.001%, which is another reason why make it fun, make it fun for them to compete for trophies and and and within the right environment, and that'll be something that we have to balance and make sure it doesn't go over the top. But we were talking prior to going live on here. The La Liga Futures tournament is one of the highest profile, biggest promoted U12 seven-a-side tournaments in the world and it's a fantastic showcase of talent and potential and excitement with some of the biggest names in the world.
Speaker 2:By saying, winning is fun and important and a part of development, that's not a foreign concept in the rest of the world.
Speaker 2:I think it's become more of a foreign concept in America For some reason or another. There are people that continue to push it farther and farther down the priority list. And again we've said this and I want to make sure we're not misquoted or don't have people throwing things at us development is the most important thing in these age groups. What we are saying is don't make development so stale and so boring and so devoid of actual to your point, Bobby comparison of hey, how am I doing, compared to these other players, that we harm the instinct to win, we make soccer less exciting and we look back in years. And I think there's a part of that happening right now where we look back in years and say, man, this has gone too far, All right, and I think we need we need to let people be excited to compete, to win and we need to celebrate some of that drive and some of that fight. Just put it within the right context and don't overemphasize it above some of the things that you may compare it to.
Speaker 3:Rory, I'd love your opinion on this Cause you mentioned it and you gave a great stat there of the 80% to the 20%, my, my, and this is a big conversation that a lot of people are having, obviously in the youth and in the professional american soccer landscape.
Speaker 3:But is the, I guess, because there's so much pushback, rory, I would ask you, because you've obviously been in these different societies in integral parts of your life is the, is the american society able to adapt that to where, um, you, we can see I think it's a long-term process, right, but where you could see growth in that in 10 to 15 years, and it's a loaded question. But I go back, christian, to what you alluded to was. I was young enough to play in the development academy my senior year of high school and the next iteration of that became, to my understanding, senior year of high school and the next iteration of that became, you know, to my understanding of heavy focus on style of play versus, maybe, results winning. Um, rory, I guess I posed a question to you on, just just in your experience, how you've seen, uh, what you've seen and how you've seen maybe our culture and society be able to adapt or develop something like that in the right way.
Speaker 4:No, that's a great question, Bobby. I actually don't think we can be an organization where we are telling people what their game model should be, what their philosophical premise should be, what their game synergy model should be. We have to be an organization that says these are the parameters, these are what we want. We want the best competitive value for every game we possibly have. I think that developmental purposes are integral to every club and we have to be savvy to that. Whatever their philosophical approaches are or whatever their game model is it, it might be okay, play this system versus this system.
Speaker 2:It might be being more direct than less direct, and that's okay because that's what makes the game fun. And I would argue on that point because it's easy for somebody I'm going to use the boogeyman here it's like some purist to say that, oh, you can't be too direct. And I think, again, that is largely over-exaggerated, because what would be one natural instinct you'd love to stimulate in a young player Bravery and confidence, to go at people, to try one-on-ones bravery and courage to press and to tackle I mean, those are things that are associated with being a little bit more direct. I think it is hard, you know, especially with younger players.
Speaker 4:Or more competitive.
Speaker 2:More competitive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's hard with a young player especially, to separate to say listen, I want you to go, be really, really aggressive and press and be combative and get the ball back.
Speaker 2:And then, by the way, once you get it, I want you to flip the switch and be calm, pass the ball 15 times, you know, and solve every overload. That's a hard emotional switch for a player to do. I would say it's unrealistic for it to happen as a switch. You know it's. It's a good discussion to have, but in a, in a world, I would suggest that it's good to have some people that are encouraging really aggressive, direct play with the ball and without the ball, and some people that are saying, hey, I don't want you to press as much, I want you to be calmer and organized, but then when we get the ball, we're going to play a different way. That that collision of philosophies and of different types of opinions is ultimately going to create a more vibrant and successful soccer system than if everybody is told to do one thing, pick one of them or anything in between.
Speaker 4:But again, bobby, to answer the question and tap on what Christian said. We are not dictating that.
Speaker 2:No, no, we're embracing all of it. I also think four or five years ago, us soccer did these PDIs, player development initiatives, one of which was to lock in 99 at U11 and 12 and 77 at U9 and U10.
Speaker 3:And so, since these are the age group.
Speaker 2:You're smiling at me, I know you're going with this. In general, smaller side, it is good. I mean, when I grew up I think we said this on the other podcast because I'm older than I don't think you played 11 a side at U10 on a full side field, but I did when I was a U10 or U11 because that's just the way the sport was and it goes back to you know, culture is a fault and people understand more about youth development, how that's not really functional for 10 year olds to have to climb Mount Everest to get to the goal. But when US soccer did that and said, ok, seven-a-side and nine-a-side is what we're going to lock in here, there's a lot of people who think that that's consistent with the way it's done all over the world and it is not.
Speaker 2:It is very different across the world. There are some places, like Spain, who are still playing seven-a-side at U11 and U12. There are places that play eight aside. England just announced, going into this coming season, that England is not even going to play 11 aside until the under 15 age group. Am I right on that, rory? I'm going to try and pull up the chart.
Speaker 4:No, you're correct. And four is for many aspects.
Speaker 2:At under seven and eight.
Speaker 2:They're going to play four Vs Four, nine and 10 is five Vs Five, 11 and 12, seven Vs Seven, 13 and 14, nine Vs Nine, and I'm going to argue and I'd love your thoughts on this Standings, scores and trophies so anything that's a metric of winning has been put into this boogeyman of oh, they are all.
Speaker 2:The problem with youth development, it's standings and scores and winning that has created this problem of teaching skill and decision making and long-term development over that.
Speaker 2:And I would argue especially having spent many of the last six months of weekends on the sideline at U12, u11, u10, u9, that if we want to improve development in those areas, the first thing we should do is play less than the numbers that are on the field. Because if you're doing U9 and 7v7, there is just a reality that that is going to demand certain things from coaches to get the game to look at all like the game and it's going to demand certain coaching points that would not be required if that game was a five V five game or a four V four game. And that, if people want to get very serious about how do you create the best environment for 12 and under. I guess. My premise is we should embrace the excitement of winning and competing and everything we've talked about, and we should talk about other factors that may improve and change what's happening on those fields that are not tied to winning. What do you say to that, bobby? You?
Speaker 4:spent two weeks in Brazil, and you can probably speak on this a little bit better than most of us, because that's the country that is producing more players Fact for the Premier League, la Liga and Champions League.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a good question and, christian, as you're talking, I'm thinking about you know, you mentioned, obviously, what the English and the FA are doing in terms of, you know, smaller, smaller sizes, and I think that is probably, uh, pushing towards just kids and individuals getting more touches on the ball, I would assume, right, more opportunity to be involved in the game.
Speaker 3:And you think I mean you, you guys have seen it right um, and your first year of 11 v 11 with the kids it's like they're using about a third, maybe a quarter, of the field, because it's just such a a change. For, I think, two points the first point for me is finding the balance between you know you want the practice and training environment to model the game, because at the end of the day, when you get to 11 v 11 and you get to high school and college and professional, the game is the game and it's pretty much the same all across the board. And I think you need to be careful about deliberately kind of manufacturing what you want to see in in the younger age groups to maybe get certain things, um that maybe aren't realistic to the real game.
Speaker 2:Maybe they are realistic to the real game and you can find balance there to that point and, if I hear you correctly, you're you're saying hey, maybe waiting till you 15 to play 11 aside might be a little late, is what I'm hearing you say there.
Speaker 3:I go back to you know what I would call manufacturing, like the results that you want to see. I think it naturally we talked about it already on the on this call is that our society, the kids aren't just playing outside of their training environment. So naturally I could see how somebody would go oh well, this makes a lot more sense to at 12 and 13, get less players on the field, maybe a smaller field. But I think what we're doing there is we're trying to make up for something that we lost when they were seven and eight years old, if that makes sense right, by doing it later in life, and I don't know that that necessarily fixes the developmental piece of that as it goes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let me react to that, because I think that's an interesting point, because I also think we have to look at this and recognize that not all eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve year olds, whatever it is, are created the same. There are players in each of those ages that are far more advanced technically, mentally, emotionally than others, and Emotionally, yeah. And so you could argue that there is a group of players that is ready for a 77 or a 9v9 a year, or maybe even two, sometimes years before a player that is a little later to develop physically, technically, emotionally, mentally, whatever it may be. That there is not a clean, bright brush on that, and you know all you need to do to see that is go walk down to a field at a big event and see just the different levels of play within the same age group. And so to your point, maybe it is.
Speaker 2:There's a reality of hey, if you don't get it at a certain age, it's hard to make it up later. Ok, that's part of your point. The other piece to that is this is not so simple as any one size fits all, and I would make an argument that a good experience at U9, u10, u11, u12 may include a little bit of all of it playing some 77, playing something 11 aside playing some foresight, playing some futsal, playing some indoor playing with walls, playing with you know, those things may actually be way more important in terms of the stimulating environment and learning opportunity than arguing about well, this one had a trophy and this one didn't.
Speaker 3:Yeah for sure. And what came to mind? I mean, christian, I'll use you as an example and you probably feel this as a coach, right? You're currently, depending on the environment, that you're in two training sessions a week. You probably look, you probably have different kids and different individuals in your team where you're going. Man, it'd be great if I could spend six months on just getting them comfortable on the ball. And then you're showing up on the weekend and you're having to compete and you're having to talk about positional play and how to play and Rory to your point game model, et cetera. It's a it's an extremely tough balance and I think you're right. I think the hope with that is the coach would be savvy enough to step back and understand that look to get them in the different environments like you're you're talking about, to make them as well-rounded as possible.
Speaker 2:I mean, I was just looking at a I don't forget what age group was watching this week and under sevens or under eights, and they were playing seven aside and there were some pretty talented players on the field again and say this all they're seven. Okay, you know, nobody's, all they're seven. Nobody's going to say they're going to be pros. Anyone who thinks your seven-year-old's going to be a pro you need to take a step back. They're not Somebody's mad. There's going to be a comment somewhere on Instagram on that.
Speaker 2:But I was looking at the game and again, this is with some of the better seven-year-olds I would say that you'll find in Southern California was watching some of these players and I was saying you know what this game? It was seven aside on a, whatever the dimensions are of the field, and I said it would be a far better experience. I thought if the field was divided in half and they played four V four on each half, um, I thought the kids would get more touches on the ball, more decisions. They get more opportunity to score. The coaching points would be very different when you're dealing with those numbers than they are with seven aside. To your point, bobby, I can see the value of putting them in seven aside periodically, you know, and give them that picture of a bigger space and bigger numbers and bigger positional awareness.
Speaker 2:But I couldn't help but saying you know what this would be such a different environment if it was 4v4 with two subs on each field than 7v7 with four subs. These are things. The reason we're talking about them is that when you're not in zone one, this is just, you know, imagination land. But as we start to build events and build leagues and build programming in zone one, these types of discussions become relevant. And I think what we will do is we will be trying different things, whether it's through league dates or league structures or tournament or event dates. We will try these things and maybe nothing that we've said today, maybe something totally different. But that's the exciting part about you guys in these positions is that we can actually start talking about making some changes and trying some new ideas and doing some things differently in the U12 and down age groups that, quite honestly, there's not been much done differently for a long time in those ages.
Speaker 4:No, I would also point and pivot to talking to the people who are not on this call, the club directors who are not on this call, who don't listen to this call To get involved with all their points of contact in Zone 1. And be totally apparent to what's going on in those spaces and how to begin better the development of those players.
Speaker 1:And that means winning too right, indeed, it does, rory, and we'll pivot again as part of Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast with Christian, rory and Bobby, and we'll do that after hearing from two more important ECNL corporate partners.
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Speaker 1:Welcome back to the April 20th 2025 edition of Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast. Once again, here's ECNL CEO and President, Christian Lavers.
Speaker 2:Bobby, you mentioned this. Be cognizant of this. We never want to become the ivory tower. We lob a lot of accusations at ivory towers. Okay, and that's why it's really important that the decision-making and leaders in our organization are people that have been on the field for a long time. Many of them are still on the field in one form or another, because you really understand it right when you're there every day and you have to live with the consequences of the decisions that you make.
Speaker 2:So it's easy for us to say, well, this is what we think should happen at U12, u11 or U10, or say, hey, clubs should put more resources into U10, u11, u12. And I think, bobby, you're right. The more forward-minded clubs in the last 10 years have done that. And there's, they've been rewarded for it because they have better players coming into 13, 14, 15, and all that sort of stuff. But now we are saying, no, we're actually going to put resources into this, we're going to put people into it, because that's the first step of building that community, and building that community with those people in each club.
Speaker 2:And I think you guys, because you both have coached in and run ECNL and RL programs and clubs all the ECNL coaches know each other, the regional coaches know each other, but the guys that are probably most disconnected, that are full-time guys in clubs, are the pre-ECNL guys. They don't all know each other. Certainly they may know each other within a city or a little beyond a city, but there is no network of mentoring, of peer-to-peer information sharing, of let's come together and do everything we've done at 13 and 18. That doesn't exist right now in the pre-ecL and I think that's one of the really exciting things as you guys build these leagues and these events and these things is to start to identify, empower, engage those people all over the country, because there are some really, really talented coaches working in these ages, in these clubs, that most people don't know.
Speaker 4:No, that's something we're very passionate about, bobby. Yeah, I agree, yeah, I think, yeah, we're very passionate about getting connected with the Zone 1 directors, the people who understand what's going on, people who understand what's necessary for their environment, regardless of game model, developmental process and what's needed right. And we haven't talked about this in this call, but the demands for more and more soccer and a great first impression in the ECNL is huge, huge. So Bobby and I are ready to tackle that Definitely.
Speaker 2:Bobby, what are you seeing or hearing in these ages in terms of the desire for more?
Speaker 3:Well, it's interesting that you know in my again little time and jumping into this, but just some calls and conversations I've already had with you know the Northwest, locally and for me in Southern California, and then you know Texas and even into you know New Mexico, colorado. I don't shy away and say that it's a bad thing to hear that in these age groups I think everybody views it a little bit differently. Right, some of them are playing in pre-CNL environments already, but even that can look a little bit different. Some of them are going hey, we're 9v9 in the fall, we're 11v11 in the spring, we're just doing our U12 team. We don't have it on the girls, but we have it on the boys.
Speaker 3:For these reasons and I think Rory and I agree on this is that the beautiful thing that I think we're trying to do here is we're not coming in and going hey, we have, like you mentioned, christian, we're this ivory tower and we know what we're doing.
Speaker 3:It's hey, how can we come alongside you and partner and help provide resources, structure, maybe things that you don't already have to better improve your environment for these individuals? And so, as our conversation is floated around what's best from 5v5 to 11v11, I think it's the same conversations that are happening kind of across the country. A Southern California environment is going to tell you one thing that is working right now for their developmental needs, and then I think a Texas might tell you something different, similar, and I think that's the the beautiful part about this conversation, the exciting part, but also the tricky part, right About what can we bring to better each of those environments and create, I think, a little bit more uniformity, not, you know, not laying the law down and this is what we do, but I think there's a really fine balance in there that Rory and I will hopefully find with each of these clubs and conferences for the league to ultimately do what's best for the individual.
Speaker 4:Our hope is to find a good balance in each geographical area, right? So what fits for the New England area may not fit for the Texas area, it may not fit for SoCal. So we are trying to make sure that we find the right balance and the right conformity to what the pre-sale should look like for your area, Definitely.
Speaker 2:So, to wrap this all up, the exciting piece is, in many ways this is a blank canvas for us to write on in terms of what we want to do and how we want to do it and how we want to structure it. It'll be heavily, heavily driven by as everything is that we do the feedback, desires and perspective of the guys on the ground who are doing it, and in this case, it'll be specifically the pre-ecnl directors, because I, I would think, correct me if I'm wrong but if you go to any big club in the country and say, hey, I want to talk about your U10 program or your U11 program, the ECNL director or the DOC is going to say, okay, great, but talk to that guy, right, don't talk to him. Talk to that guy, because that's the person who's doing it and that program is very, very different. So we're going to empower those people, we're going to engage those people. We're going to create a wide variety of different structures based on what is appropriate, geographically, competitive level, the existing ecosystem I hate to use. If it's not broke, then don't break it, but there are places where we will probably be supplemental. There are places where clubs will go all in across multiple age groups. We'll try some new programs and some new events. I mean these pre-ECNL Cups. You guys will be at those a bunch of those.
Speaker 2:I think the first one we're doing is Ohio, I believe Ohio in September, the first weekend tournament championship for a U11 team to play in the ECNL.
Speaker 2:That should be a super exciting thing. And what we've talked about internally on that is making these events a celebration of soccer for the family, to make it a welcoming place for mom, dad and the siblings, an exciting place for the player Roy to your point, a fantastic introduction to how cool and fun and exciting soccer can be long-term, so that you keep those players and families engaged in playing and actively contributing to the growth of the sport. All that's on the table. You guys are in your first days and weeks of this. It's not going to be done overnight, but as we talk about internally, we run fast. One of the best parts of our organizations is the ability to pivot quick and implement and execute quick and I think we'll see that in what you guys are doing. And so I guess I'll turn it to each of you for last words as we wind down the podcast on the pre-Cnl and the future in those ages, bobby let's start with you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I would end with um just just what you said obviously excited to get going and move uh, uh energetically through this. I think and I think the point that I want to get across and echo is exactly what you said is that, um, I feel that the ecnl, my experience um, the ecnl has always been a league, obviously, that puts its members and its clubs first and partners with them to determine what the best um plan of action is. And I don't. It's obviously no different as it pertains to the priest and now I think it's a space that we want to learn in all the different areas. It's a space that we feel it's necessary to start to dive into, to continue the development of the player in the league and ultimately want to partner with these individuals and all the different conferences nationwide to understand their needs, their wants, their desires in these age groups and see what's best for each of these players and clubs and conferences.
Speaker 4:Rory I zoned out. He's so good. Each of these players in clubs and conferences, rory I zoned out, he's so good.
Speaker 2:Going to just leave Bobby with the last word, because you're going to regret that down the road.
Speaker 4:No, I'm going to make it so simple. Teach your kids to pass, dribble, receive, shoot, score, celebrate, enjoy the game. Teach your kids to enjoy the game. Teach your kids to want to be a winner and be competitive.
Speaker 2:And we will get to a great place. Yeah, I mean listen, is there any age that is too young to encourage competitiveness, to encourage striving and aspiration, to encourage display of skill, to encourage that when you do some things there's positive outcomes and when you do other things there's less positive outcomes? I don't think there's an age that's too young to do that. That's what we want to do here. We're excited about it.
Speaker 2:I don't know that there's any time recently anyway, somebody has gone into this space with as much vigor. I think that that we're going to go into it. So we're excited about the growth of it, excited to have you guys on board with us and what I think will be one of, if not the fastest growing areas of our league moving forward the pre-ECNL zone one, boys and girls leagues, events services. Who knows what other types of programs we'll come up with to support the environment and support the clubs that are doing such great work down in those age groups. So thank you guys for being on. I hope you're going to click the subscribe button and make the breaking the line a part of your regular listening experience. It'll inform, engage and educate you.
Speaker 4:I just want to hear you talk, not talk Bracken.
Speaker 2:Well, doug will be back on the next one, well, refreshed and tanned, I think so. Thanks to everybody. No, bracken's brain buster, you get away with that, because he's not on today. We may have to bring you back just to do that. I'm sure that was very, very high on your list of things for the day.
Speaker 1:Thank you, everybody thank you, christian, bobby and Rory also want to thank Jacob Born, the man who does so much work putting these podcasts together, and our producer, colin Thrash, for each and every one of them. I'm Dean Linke. I do want to leave you with one message from another sponsor, continental Tire. You can drive into summer with Continental Tire, whether you're planning a road trip or heading to a soccer match. Purchase a set of four qualifying Continental Tires now, through August 31st, and get a $110 Continental Tire prepaid MasterCard by mail. Visit continentaltirecom to learn more. Continental Tire, the smart choice in tires. Breaking the line the ECNL podcast the smart choice in podcasts. Thanks for being with us. Thank you for listening to breaking the line the ECNL podcast and remember, if you have a question that you want answered on breaking the line, the ECNL podcast, email us at info at the ECNLcom.