Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
The Elite Clubs National League was founded in 2009 and continues to lead by daring to do things differently, embedded with grit, collaboration and tenacity – all things learned from the beautiful game. The ECNL protects and propels the integrity of the game and everyone it impacts by facilitating the perfect symmetry of excellence and humility, exclusivity and accessibility, freedom and community. We believe that challenging everyone to rise to their best creates game-changers that live well, long after cleats are unlaced. Born out of the belief in a better way. Continued in the ever-evolving pursuit of excellence.
Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
A Growth Mindset: Facilitating Player Development | Ep. 126
Let us know the topics of interest to you!
The Breaking the Line team has returned for another player-focused episode, this time discussing player development.
ECNL Vice President kicks off the conversation with a thought-provoking question: if you were building an ECNL club from scratch today, where would you start?
With that as the starting point, he and ECNL President Christian Lavers weave their way through all the different aspects of player development: coaching, training, club roles, where does a league fit in to player development, player growth and more.
Throughout the discussion, the pair give advice to all different parties, sharing their dos and don’ts, and define what growth and player development looks like at different age groups.
The episode closes out with the same question posed at the beginning, but does their answers change? Listen to find out.
If YOU were starting an ECNL club from scratch today, what would be your first move? Let us know on social media or in the comments.
As always, make sure to submit any questions to https://ecnl.info/BTL-Questions, to subscribe to Breaking the Line on YouTube, and to follow the ECNL on all social channels.
This is the October 1, 2025 edition of Breaking the Line and East TL Podcast, featuring 16L president, and CTL crystal labor, and East NL bytes president and steps of practice. Today Kristen and Doug talk about player development. How clusters are structured and even how clubs could be structured to increase player development. How important is the experience of the youth soccer player? And Christian even answers Doug's opening question, which is quote, if you were starting an ETML club, what do you think is the most important thing to do to be successful? So with that, let's roll. Here's Christian Labers.
SPEAKER_04:Thanks for that introduction, as always, Dean. Here we are again, Doug, back in the saddle in podcast verse.
SPEAKER_05:Heaven. Podcast Heaven, if you will.
SPEAKER_04:Might be ambitious.
SPEAKER_05:I like that. Christian, what'd you get into this weekend?
SPEAKER_04:I did a lot of coaching this weekend. Did you? A lot of coaching.
SPEAKER_05:How'd that go?
SPEAKER_04:Always interesting. Had uh three teams of different levels in the same age groups. So different. Good to see. Just the wide variety of type of player culture, mentality, maturity.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, within the individual, within the group, within the parent group. But it was good. It was another nice day in Southern California. So that made it made it better.
SPEAKER_05:Kind of always like that. I didn't coach. I participated in soccer games as a fan. You know, the difference between a high school senior soccer player and the freshman high school soccer player is pretty, pretty big.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, there's a lot of physical change that goes on in the in the male body from 13 to 18 or whatever the age range is.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, it's interesting to see it play out in real time. We also did just have our first official pre-CNL event in Ohio, the Midwest Cup. That was solely that. Sounds like that was a rousing success.
SPEAKER_04:Solely pre-ECNL, so U12, U11, U10. Yeah. Everybody playing a tournament style for a trophy and for a division championship, which was really exciting. The kids seem to have a lot of fun with that. That program, which will be rolling out significantly growing over the coming year. Uh, it was really good to see that start. And I think it did, but based on all accounts, it did what we expected it in terms of the enjoyment and the excitement of the players and the families, and a really good fun environment for that in an Ohio. Can never go wrong in Ohio.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, you can. Actually, you can. Actually, you can. But the weather was very nice this weekend. It was a little, even a little bit hot. I feel like the last few years, there's no like phase into fall. It's kind of just this line of this day that happens and all of a sudden it's cold.
SPEAKER_04:And well, I don't know. There's a graphic about Midwest weather about there's like fake fall, fake summer, you know, second summer, second fake fall, you know, real winter, you know, all that sort of stuff that comes.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah. We're trying to shake out of of summer still. It's pretty hot, been pretty hot here, but uh good event. Happy to see us getting that going. I think it's a great space for players to be introduced to ECNL and happy to see that it was a success. That's good.
SPEAKER_04:Lots of joy, lots of fun in those age groups, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_05:One other non-soccer related thing wanted to ask you. You are you uh rider cup interested or not interested at all?
SPEAKER_04:You know, I've I've dabbled. I got less interested recently, although it sounds like we have not been golfing well in this year's Ryder Cup as far as I saw last time I looked.
SPEAKER_05:In the team portion of it where you're, you know, in your groups or whatever, we we we got trounced, I think is is the right word. But then you cut, I think the last day in this format is singles. We literally almost came back to win. We were down, I think, seven points or something, you know, unprecedented going into the final uh day, and uh made a pretty rousing comeback, fell short by just a small amount, but it was it was super interesting to watch it and a lot of drama, a lot of people hyped.
SPEAKER_04:I hear there was some fan, some spectator misbehaving.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, you have the event on Long Island, that's not anything against Long Islanders.
SPEAKER_04:Well, it seems like it was something against Long Island.
SPEAKER_05:It didn't mean to be, but yes, I I think there were some very spicy comments uh made, particularly toward uh Rory McElroy, a great European golfer that he is.
SPEAKER_04:But uh I guess they make the comments on the sidelines of youth sports and they make the comments on the sidelines of the Ryder Cup.
SPEAKER_05:I never really understood that yelling at and stuff at sporting events. You know, it's kind of weird. You know what I'm saying? Kind of weird. Go to a football game, go to you know yell stuff, like weird stuff from the sidelines. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I just think there's people that need need some other things to do.
SPEAKER_05:Today, what uh I'm gonna ask you this first question, Christian. We're gonna get into some stuff about player development and clubs and how clubs are structured and how clubs can be structured to have successful player development and what that looks like and all that kind of stuff. So let me ask you this question, Christian. If you were starting an ECNL club, what is the one or most important thing that you would do to start that club?
SPEAKER_04:I have really good players.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, I'm assuming there are things you do before that to attract said players.
SPEAKER_04:So you know, you know, you know the joke at coaching school where somebody somebody says, Hey, uh, your team's been giving up a lot of goals, your center back play is not very good, and you know when you need to design a session to improve the play of the center backs to reduce the number of goals conceded by whatever behavior. And the response is, well, I'd just go buy another center back.
SPEAKER_05:It's fair. I don't know that we can necessarily do that at the youth level.
SPEAKER_04:No, no, not the purchase, not the purchasing power, but uh there's there's lots of uh there's lots of start from scratch to the fact that players are the players are the answer.
SPEAKER_05:Well, there's yes, I think we both agree with that. All right, so let's just start from scratch. You don't have any players. You're starting you're starting an ECNL club, you want to be successful in player development.
SPEAKER_04:First, even before we get into what we're gonna do, there's gonna be like let's call it macroeconomic issues, right? You're gonna have questions about what is the player pool from which you are pulling to create these teams. Because the bigger the player pool in general, the better the level of player is gonna be, regardless of developmental methodology. You have to have a certain number of pla of people that decide they like soccer, that decide they're gonna commit to soccer, that decide they're gonna get better at soccer, and that you can then apply any type of style, philosophy, methodology to. You know, there are things outside the control of the coaching staff and the club that are going to impact what you do. Catchment area and player pool or size of player pool is a big one. Facility is going to be a big one. It's bigger depending on sometimes where you are in the country. Uh, if you're indoors or for part of the year and what you have access to, um the size of the space, the quality of the surface, the uh accoutrements that would might go around it in terms of the ability to do other things like performance training or to do video or even to do classroom stuff prior to or around sessions. I think those macroeconomic or infrastructure things are always at least worth noting because they can make success easier or more difficult. Do you agree with that?
SPEAKER_05:I'm trying to find that balance between let's imagine that you have the resources and the facility and all that stuff in place, starting from ground zero. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, is it is it getting the right coaches first?
SPEAKER_04:Well, I think let's if we step back and we say if we're gonna look at like what is what is the mark of a good development environment, I think the the reason I I I maybe pivoted to that answer is because to me, really good coaches help players get better from wherever they are to a better stage. And the really good coaches help them get better faster and maybe farther, but where the players are at the beginning is largely out of the control of the coach. And that is gonna be impacted by the size of the player pool and the the choices that are available in that, uh the athletic gin genetics that are gonna be a piece of that, and then the speed at which you can get better will be impacted to some degree, I think a minor uh compared to the quality of the coach, but to the facilities that you have and the the resources around them. For example, if you have access to a classroom with the ability to outline a session, show video from the previous game, and then walk right out on the field, that's a better development environment than not. It's going to help you move things forward. But if if we really just point go all the way to the end of your question, I think ultimately what you really want to do is have the best possible coaches. Then you ask yourself, I guess, what are you doing to help those coaches get better? And what do really good coaches do? And your answer to that is what? We've talked about before on this podcast that the the biggest thing I think missing in a lot of coach development is the ability for coaches to have people give them feedback. For somebody to um watch a session, to give feedback on a session, to watch an activity or a way a coach interacts or designs an activity and to give feedback and ask questions about why and what other things could have been done. I don't think that happens a lot. I think so. If you're going to design an ideal club, you would probably try and put some type of budget or position into some coach educator or coach observer or whatever you want to call it, somebody who's going to at least help to make the coaches more reflective and more accountable for what happens on training day. And that also helps to align maybe what happens from coach A to coach B to coach C, whether that's across age groups or whether that's even within age groups, so that there is a little bit more alignment in uh philosophy or approach. That doesn't mean everybody's got to play the same way or anything like that. But I think that's I would start with that. I would start with uh you need a vision uh from a coaching perspective. You need to get people who are hungry, who want to learn and work hard as coaches, and then you got to try and figure out a way of how am I going to create some feedback loops for the coaches so that they in the same way we expect players to get better from the beginning of the season to the end of the year? Are we expecting coaches to get better? And what are we doing to facilitate that growth in the coach?
SPEAKER_05:To to think about the factors that you kind of talked about, how do you define a successful player development environment? What does that even mean?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, we're we're in some deep waters here, so these are you know opinions. And you there's there's people that I think surely spend a greater amount of time thinking about these things and and talking about them, maybe researching them than we do. So I think you know, with the caveat that we're speaking from personal experience and and personal viewpoint, I'll go back to the beginning is of really good coaches help players get better. And that sounds obvious until you see environments where players show up two, three times a week for many, many weeks, and you don't really see a growth and improvement of the individual or the team. And I think it is a unfortunate reality that there are there is not an insignificant number of, and I think this is probably true across a lot of sports, so it's not a soccer-specific thing, where the coaches, however, well-intentioned, there's not a lot of player improvement and growth within that environment, or there's maybe not as much as you would like to see. So I look back, and again, uh, you know, the first place it was obvious to me as a as a coach was in was watching goalkeeper coaching. There were times where I saw players going to goalkeeper coaches, and and over the course of weeks and months, they got significantly better at goalkeeping. And then there were times when the player would go to goalkeeper coaches week after week after week, and you just wouldn't see much change, if any, in the performance of the player. That was really easy to see because of the unique factors of that position. And I think goalkeeper coaching has probably improved a lot since then from the sort of isolated take your goalkeepers out into a you know very technically based shot stopping session or whatever it may be. Um, but even within that somewhat artificial environment of shot stopping and, you know, away from the context of a team, you could see that some goalkeeper coaches were a lot more effective than others in changing behavior and changing performance. And I think you can look at the same thing. When I look at a coach, time is a huge help. Of if you look at the environment from day one to day 100, what do you see different? And what do you see different in the way those players behave, the way those players act, the way the team collectively plays, the quality of the actions that they're doing, and whether it's striking a ball or sophistication or decisions? To me, it's one of those things you can somewhat overcomplicate. And I like to just strip it back down to if you look at a group over time, are they moving in the right direction? And can you see that happening noticeably and quickly?
SPEAKER_05:From a coaching perspective, like what kind of growth should coaches be looking for, and how do you measure it?
SPEAKER_04:When a coach is looking at a player?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Or maybe a parent. Let's start there. And then I uh yeah, that and then I think you could also go from the director to the coach. Like how how does the director look at a coach and see, you know, what their growth is as well. I think I mean I think it kind of transcends all those things. Can can be applied to all those things.
SPEAKER_04:You'll have opinions on this as well. And and I if we keep this in the sort of context of anecdotal, I think if you hear players starting to speak using similar words and terms as the coach, that's a positive sign, right? That's a sign of an effective communicator when the players are starting to mimic the phrasing or the terminology or the ways in which the coach speaks in terms of solving a problem. Um, because it means that at a minimum, the players are hearing the words consistently enough and understanding where to apply them so that they are starting to take some ownership in their own environment, starting from how a coach has identified a desired uh uh behavior, desired action or a problem that needs to be solved in certain moments. So I think there's a little bit of a do the do the player conversations get increasingly sophisticated over time? And that could be very different than when you're talking about, you know, U9, U10, or whatever it may be, and U16. But I would like to think that over the course of a season, from the beginning to the end, a player, especially in these huge growth areas, can speak about the game with increasing detail and sophistication if they are in a good learning environment.
SPEAKER_05:One important thing is for every coach to put down a marker of this is what this is what we're working towards. Right. That idea of if you don't know what it's supposed to look like at the end, you know, how are you gonna get there? Kind of idea. So maybe you're putting something like that, and then being able to track the progress towards that kind of goal or that outcome of however you apply it, whether it be like, hey, we've we've got to learn how to pass the ball or keep the ball.
SPEAKER_04:And well, so let's let's let's break that down, Doug, because it because uh so much of this is as they would say, age and stage specific, right? And I think what we're saying is score line and and competitive result is not a good metric of whether there's a good amount of player development occurring. Certainly the shorter the time period that you're looking at, the less valuable that that metric is. Yes, right. And if you go back to the other macroeconomics issues or facilities and catchment area and all that, it becomes even further, I think, difficult in that. But if you look at if let's maybe take go from the opposite side, where do we see environments where there is clearly not enough learning and development going on in the younger ages? So let's look at you know 10 and down or 12 and down.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. To me, when you see players that have played, have been quote unquote playing soccer for multiple years, who have no ability to receive a ball and strike a ball with any sort of technical cleanliness. And what uh what I mean by that is the biomechanics of an inside of the foot pass or reception, or a driven ball, you know, or the ability to uh manipulate a ball from one foot to the other, inside to outside, in a way that it's balanced, right? And that looks athletic. You see, unfortunately, lots of kids who have spent uh more than a year in soccer training twice a week for an extended period of time, who don't understand things like lock your ankle and get your toe up when you strike the ball with the inside of your foot. So I think technical execution at the younger ages and the ability to see improvement within that so that the player is having more accuracy, more um effective um touches, and more athletic looking movement. Um that does not that's not talking about trying changing somebody's biomechanics and running, but just how they move their feet. We talk about like small, quick steps. That's how athletes move, right? Small, quick steps. They don't lunge. Um, I think that's something you see it sometimes by when it's more obvious when you don't see it than when you do.
SPEAKER_05:It is very age-specific, but you know, what is the plan and how are we going to work towards that? I do think we underestimate the ability of what young players could do. Young players can do more than more than we think. Um, and so we should challenge them to do it. Um not necessarily forgetting about all the important technical aspects of the game that you you rightly point out.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and to your to your point on the plan, and I think sometimes people can you know overcomplicate even that, but the plan for let's just say at 10 and under needs to be a continual emphasis of cleaning up technique and teaching technique within some type of fun activity that is game-like, so that over the course of an extended period of time you see a group of players increasingly technically capable because the plan is prioritizing the ability to learn how to manipulate a ball and strike a ball and receivable, right?
SPEAKER_05:I mean, from a how do you how do you demand that while still keeping the environment fun?
SPEAKER_04:Well, you're talking about coaching art there, and again, this is our opinion on all these things, so people can can argue or say there and talk to other people about that as well. But you know, I think it's got back to the to the mix of there's got to be certain amount of repetition, there's got to be a certain amount of context, you know, that it's done within. So small-sided game type stuff. But if at the end of a I would say this, if at the end of a six-month period and you're in a young zone one-ish, 10 and down, 12 and down, there is not a a marked difference in a in a child's ability to, you know, strike and receivable, and then to kind of understand the basic decisions of the game of when when and why to pass versus dribble, and how that may be different in one area of the field or another, and how do how do two people communicate, then you you need to ask a question about is there something, is it something that's specific to the environment? Is it something specific to that individual player? Um, but I think in your sense, part of the plan is making it age and stage appropriate. And so when I when you hear U10 and U11 coaches talking uh elaborately about systems, you know, or or um, you know, we play, you know, a 2-3-2 or a 3-2-1 or a 3-1-2 or a whatever, like to me, that's a little bit of a flag because the systems to me are not even close to relevant in terms of anything they're learning. If anything, I think, and again, it may depend on the level. Lower level teams, you if if you're thinking at all about a system, you're probably just thinking what's the easiest thing for them to understand so they have the best chance of success in executing, you know, what we're trying to try trying to execute.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I don't think I don't know if I totally agree with that. I think you could put them, I think you have a long-term idea, and you don't necessarily talk about the intricacies of the system, but you put them in it and you give them the basic framework as to why. Because I think that's just part of it. If your intention on the long term, and again, I think players can move from coach to coach, but let's take a little bit longer term way of thinking and say, well, I'll put I'll put them in a in this system that I think in the long term is the way we want to learn how to play out of. And I would do that probably pretty early. And maybe I wouldn't necessarily talk about the intricacies of the system and and what it what it will mean for us, but giving them some familiarity and allowing them to look at the game from the from that system, I think it's pretty important early on because it's well listen.
SPEAKER_04:So let's let's look at it at 77 or 99. So whether you're playing with two at the back or three at the back, you know, no, I don't think what system you're playing matters.
SPEAKER_05:Well, right, but what I'm saying is the game or the outcome of the game. I think it matters in you know your grand scheme of how you want to teach the game.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I don't know. I mean, because I would say again, whether it's two or three in the back, what are you really looking for? You're looking for the ability of that player to be able to strike a ball to play out of the back. So whether it's a a short or a long pass, you know, of one uh right foot or left foot inside or outside. You're looking for the basic understanding of guidance in that decision. You know, where do you look for how to play out of the back? When do you look? How do you make the decision of do I play short or long or right or left, right? Uh, what is the pros and cons of playing in one space or another in terms of risk and reward? You're looking for those things that will vary if you're playing with two back versus three back or whatever. But I would argue that you pick pick whichever one you want, and you can pick either one, and and there may be pros and cons in that to some degree or another. But the main thing is that at the end of the season, you want a player who understands that when I receive the ball in this space, I'm actually competent to receive it for the most part. I'm competent to strike an in uh an increased variety of passes. And I generally understand what I'm looking for and how to make that basic decision. That is, to me, that is the first metric I would look at, you know, in terms of evaluating development and growth in a player who is playing in a let's just call it a defending defensive position in in that age group. Does that make sense to you, or do you have a different perspective on that?
SPEAKER_05:I think I I probably it's pretty fairly similar, but slightly different in that. I mean, I think at the younger ages it's a little bit easier to have a relationship with one player in the game more than sometimes two players. So maybe playing with two at the back might be an easier thing to think about, um, depending on how you know what I what I might see going forward. But um I I think I generally agree.
SPEAKER_04:Here's here's a thought. Let's make let's make it a little bigger. Let's get out of out of zone one specifics.
SPEAKER_05:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:I think a really uh a good training environment where there's learning is by its nature messy. And what I mean by that is it's not it doesn't look perfect, it is not perfectly organized, there are not great lines and perfect execution of technique that leads to a you know a finish. It is something where there are mistakes made. There is a little bit of chaos as the game is a little bit of chaos. There is a range of performances within it. There's turnovers and transition. I think sometimes, and I've fallen into this, I can say at a stage in my career where you end up you can have a training environment that looks really, really good and sharp and professional, and everybody's exactly where they're supposed to be doing exactly what they're supposed to be. And it's so mechanic and it's so lacking in context, right? Um, that it looks good. People can watch it and say, wow, those guys are organized. They really, those players know what to do, and they're they're they're they look really clean at it, but it is so divorced from the reality of the game of opposition, direction, spatial constraints, all that sort of stuff, that there's actually not a ton of learning going on. What they've done is become experts at a drill, or experts or really good performers in an activity that doesn't necessarily change translate to changing and improving performance in a game. And so I would caution looking at a really, really intricately set up field with lots of cones and you know, mannequins and and and poles and stations and you know technical actions, that's not maybe as indicative of a really good environment as you may think, because you can have an environment that might be more rich for learning that has two small goals and four cones.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, but you you would acknowledge that that can be true in both senses. Like in in in a somewhat chaotic environment, there can be no learning going on, just as much as in an in a prescribed environment, they could be good learning going on. I think it just depends on the messages and how you know how you do it. But yeah, which I do think chaos is part of the part of the game. And so you know, experiencing that and training is certainly a part of part of it. And the reality is no matter how much you work on a pattern of play or you know, prescribe something is the the it translating into coming out in the game exactly the way you've tried tried to choreograph it is is probably unlikely. So uh you have to be able to manage that.
SPEAKER_04:Right, but we're trying to give some guideposts here. So I I I think. So I guess what I'm saying is that beware the overly structured, really elaborately looking setup. Because that it it may, to your eyes, it suggests um something that may not be true. Now, listen, the the alternative, if it's just you know, everybody playing recess and you know capture the flag, that's not not gonna be helpful either. Um, now to your point, is there time to have more mechanical repetitive things? Sure. But um I would argue that you know there should be more playing than there should be repetition uh in in general at almost any age. And I think probably the younger you go, even even more that would be the case. I would also say that not every training needs to be this elaborately new activity. I think sometimes coaches spend a lot of time coaching and teaching an activity uh that that is new and that may be uh complicated. That having a handful of activities that are just tweaked and adjusted, or where the coach is focusing on different parts of the game from one session to another, but that doesn't require a lot of, as I think Doug Lenoff would say, working memory. Doesn't take a lot of concentration to understand the rules and restrictions, and I'm supposed to do what when I'm where, but that is really allowing their brain to focus on the game and then whatever the teaching within the game is. I think, and we've all, I think every coach has gone through that evolution to some degree of going from overly elaborate, every session and every activity is new and and and different, to hey, that's you know, that's also missing the point, you know, because to use the cliche, I mean the the 11 aside game has everything in it. As you shrink it down, you're just gonna change how frequently some things may happen compared to others. And if you shrink it down to 2v2, you're gonna you're gonna get a lot of
SPEAKER_05:Well, we've all like sat down and planned a session and been like, man, this is really amazing. This is going to be amazing. And then it it well, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And then that one kid who figures out the loophole ruins the entire activity because you didn't think about that one little uh process.
SPEAKER_05:I I tend to buy like I I think, you know, and again, this is a matter of opinion, but I you know, to to what you said, I I agree. I think you know it having some familiarity in training is probably pretty useful. You can teach the game and not have to always teach the exercise. And but I think you could probably some people could look at it on the flip side and say, uh, it builds you know the ability in players over time to adjust to new things and make have to make decisions and challenge them to bring something new to the table every every uh time. So I I know coaches that do both who never do the same thing twice, or you know, something close to that, or people that repeat the thing.
SPEAKER_04:I'm gonna kind of call BS on that.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, probably it's probably not that, but yeah, you you you know the point that I'm trying to make here. So okay. Well, let's let's do this. Let's take a break. Because I I think we've taken this player-centric coach to player approach. I I think we need to look at this from a club perspective. Like, how do we structure clubs, think about how a club should be in order to be successful in utopia? And then we probably obvious obviously need to talk about the realities that we all all face. But let's take a break, hear from a couple of our sponsors. Score big with Continental Tire, prioritize your safety on the road with our thoroughly tested tires for top-notch traction handling, durability, drive with confidence. Find your dealer at continentaltire.com. Continental tire, the smart choice in tires. And you can get your Continental Tires, a discount tire. Want the same expert advice from the pros at a discount tire store while shopping online. Meet Treadwell, your personal tire guide. Whether you're driving to practice or game day, Treadwell gives you tire recommendations based on your vehicle location and driving habits get matched with the perfect tires so you can stay focused on the goals that matter most. Shop with Treadwell at discounttire.com. And finally, soccer.com is proud to partner with the UCNL to support the continued development of soccer in the U.S. at the highest levels. They've been delivering quality soccer equipment and apparel to players, fans, and coaches since 1984, living and breathing the beautiful game ourselves. The goal at soccer.com is to inspire you to play better, cheer louder, and have more fun. Visit soccer.com today to check out our unmatched selection of gear expert advice and stories of greatness at every level of the game. So thanks to soccer.com, Continental Tire and Discount Tire for your support of the league. Now, Christian, we've talked a little bit here about the coaching specific uh and at the team level. Let's let's talk about the club level, how you structure it ideally at that level to create that environment from a club perspective. I think it's always important to say this, and we we probably haven't said it in a while. We set this league up as a club league to support clubs who are the primary drivers of player development. There have been team-based models, and there are continue to be team-based models out there. Um, and you know, we even have some of our licensed leagues who who have a team-based model. But our overriding feeling was that this needed to be a club league, right? So that we could support clubs.
SPEAKER_04:Well, if if we take from the starting point that development by its nature is individual, right? Or to use the quote we've used before, teams don't learn, individuals do.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Right. So by its nature, what you're trying to improve is the performance of an individual and their ability to execute decisions and their ability to make decisions, and then to do so in relationship with others, right? Then there and that's when the team becomes in it. Um, I think the challenge of a club is in providing enough, you could say, guardrails or enough alignment and consistency so that you're maximizing the um you know the journey of the player up and to the right year over year, age group to age group, as they will by almost default go through different coaches and different stages of their own development. Some maybe where they're higher in the age group, some where they're lower in the age group based on their ability to perform. So, so the challenge of a club is to provide enough room for the individual nuance of the coach and the nuance of the team, and the nuance of then all the way down to that player within that team with that coach, but not have it be so wildly varying that there is very little commonality or consistency from one coach to another, one team to another, or one age group to another. And why is that valuable is because if there's a big disconnect between the way you coach and I coach, and a player is coming from me to you, or vice versa, there's going to be a period of time where there is lost learning as they just try and adjust to the way that you speak, or the terms that you use that I use different terms, and they don't know what it means, and then they have to relearn that. Or the even to some degree, you know, if we play dramatically differently, you know, and the way they've learned to solve some basic problems with my group is very different than the way you want to solve problems. There's, you know, and of course, there's a there's a value to variety and being put in different circumstances over the course of time. But when you're teaching kids and you want them to continually grow in performance ability and understanding, having consistency from age group to age group and and what it looks like and how we speak, and what does this term mean uh uh versus that term? And I feel even what is generally the flow of a training session? What are the expectations in the culture? Those types of things, I think having commonality helps make room for nuance in the way a coach then interprets that culture.
SPEAKER_05:You have some prescription that leaves room for your style and interpretation around it, basically, is what you're saying.
SPEAKER_04:Your personality. I mean, we what's one of the first things you learn as a coach is be you. Don't be somebody else because that's not it's fake, and they'll and the players will see through that. So, first be you. You don't need to speak the way somebody else does or act the way somebody else does. You may be teaching the same thing, but in a different way.
SPEAKER_05:What part does the league because we've said a lot, you know, leagues don't develop players, clubs develop players, coaches develop players. What role does the league play in all this?
SPEAKER_04:I think very little. You do? I do. I mean, I think the league is a way to see performance levels. And yes, can you learn things in competition? Yes, of course you can. So can does the league support a developmental model? Of course it does, right? Because if you have really good games, and by good games I mean games that are generally close, right? That are stretching players to perform. Some is some it's really hard, some it's a little easier. Having a good league schedule and season does support a developmental model, but ultimately the interpretation of that and what you take from those games is all up to the coach and up to the club in terms of how they frame that and what they do at training to reinforce or correct things. So I think the league is very much in a secondary role to the club and and coach in terms of the importance. What the main job of a league is is to make sure that the game schedule makes sense and that the game levels generally make sense, and that you don't have a lot of games that are uncompetitive. But from a developmental perspective, the interpretation of the information that is shown in a competition and how that is translated into training before and after is still goes back to what is the club and what do the coach do.
SPEAKER_05:I'm gonna I'm gonna push back a little.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Because and this would be what what I experienced or what you know in this in this endeavor, right? I think the first thing I learned in playing in this league, and obviously we were here at the beginning, um, and so we've seen the transition of it or whatever, but it's consistently playing against that level of competition makes you realize, man, I gotta get better. We gotta get better. So it pushes you not only from just the individual coaching perspective, because I think we all probably think we're pretty good, you know, at what we do, and then you find out, hey, you know, there's always there's always ways to get better, but also from a club perspective, if we want to be able to function effectively in this, in this competition, we've got to change or think about how we structure things and what we do. Whether that means I'll tell you one thing we did that I found is I was like, man, we need more, we need more training time, like time where we're having effective training.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but what made you think that was the fact that the games were harder. So the league did its job by giving you can consistently harder games than the alternative.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, consistently, yes. And and and then the other thing is that it that it does is it brings you more interaction with your fellow people, your fellow operators, right? And so you learn a little bit more. I I've said this like at our symposium a million times. Like one of the best consequences of this league is it's brought coaches more together. You have more relationships where maybe I saw you once uh once a year and we had zero relationship. Now I see you around at each event or in the conference play and whatever. So now you have peers that you you know talk to and you're like, holy cow, like we've got to get more training time. And an hour and a half training session three days a week, if you factor in the time to transition between one team to another and the warm-up and all that, man, we're training for like a three hours a week. It's not good enough. So we you know, we added time to that so that we could have more training time because we can't.
SPEAKER_04:Well, uh, so a sc a league schedule allows that. I mean, but again, the the efficacy of that three hours or four and a half hours or whatever the time is is still up to you as the coach in terms of what you what you do with that time.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, but you again, there's there's the these things that you know make you realize or uncover things that maybe you wouldn't if you just lived in your bubble that you normally do.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, yeah, no, I I agree with that.
SPEAKER_05:You know, so so I I think there is that brings some importance to it. At the end of the day, you know, the coach and and that and the and the level of the players will determine some of the the development, you know, and and what that looks like. And again, this is not me taking the the league taking credit for all this, but it plays a role.
SPEAKER_04:And important it plays a role. I just think it's secondary, you know. But I also think you know, we've talked a lot about the coach's role in this, and and the coach has got the dominant role, but the player, the the coach has a dominant role in the collective and in the group, but the player ultimately has a big role in this. And I and I I think it's always important to recognize that when players go through periods of dramatic improvement, it's because they've done things, they have worked harder, they have worked more, they have been more attentive, they have pushed themselves.
SPEAKER_05:Would you say the players now are better than they were when we started this?
SPEAKER_04:Yes, I would say very, very clearly the average level of American youth soccer, if we started with the girl side, the average female competitive soccer program is significantly better.
SPEAKER_05:Is that just the the result of just evolution and time, or is it it's the result of all the things we've talked about?
SPEAKER_04:I mean, the league made did help that, right? The creation of the boys DA, which helped create the girls ECNL, which helped change the club schedules, which helped gave better better uh consistent level of competition, which then allowed and demanded better training, all that stuff, then expanding that better quote unquote program to more players so that they have the opportunity to be in that environment, be tested and seen in the same way. That all of that stuff is added to it. The coaches have gotten better from that. Our operating premise on that is that as you as you increase the the level of play at the base that will push the top up. It's a longer term application, because I do believe that the top ultimately are a function to some degree of the base. The lower the base is, the harder it is to get one or more players at the top. The higher the level of average performance within the group, um, that's going to push those that are the best to be cat to have to be better. Um, because it's not, and that's another thing I think you've seen through uh the iterations over time, is there are less players that are as dominant maybe as there used to be. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think I mean and and I think that's because maybe there's more of them that are that are at that level, right?
SPEAKER_05:So the one doesn't stand out as much.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. So, but I I think ultimately, you know, you know, a a coach, a coach we both know once, you know, I heard say a comment, you know, that hey, both of these players were in the same training environment. And there's truth to that statement.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Because at the end of the day, the coach's job is to set the table, and the coach's job is to create the environment and provide the information, but ultimately the player has to listen to it, take the information, interpret the information, and apply the information. And so you can see when you're dealing with players that are not very coachable, you know, and I think coachability is a big time skill. I say to our kids sometimes, listening is a superpower. The kids that are are really tuned in and then try and apply information improve so much faster than kids that do not. And whether part of that is pure attendance, but part of that is just concentration and maturity or discipline. And I think um it's unrealistic to say you're gonna have an environment where every single player in the team is all gonna improve to the same degree or percentage because they're just they're not. There, there's some that are gonna jump and there's some that are not gonna maybe improve that much because they're not attentive and they're not attending and they're not applying. But I think if you're looking at the coach, do you say the majority of the group is moving forward significantly? And some of them are really jumping forward. That's a really, really good environment. And if you look and say, hey, there's not much of a change from this team from day one to day 100, the environment looks the same, the level of performance looks the same, the same kids are doing the same type of thing. Well, that's you know, leads to a different assumption that, you know, again, the coach may be step one of setting the culture in the environment, but the players got to take the biggest step.
SPEAKER_05:And I would also just not discount the things that have been put in place to help create more experiences, more touch points with players and coaches, whether that be the symposium where coaches learn things and get education, whether it's the coach's voice stuff where we require all coaches in the league to do this education, to try to create that mentality of life lifelong learners as as coaches, whether it be the elevated competitions like Super Cup or our NSGs or spotlights that that again give these.
SPEAKER_04:You know what I would call all those things, Doug's? I I would call them all catalysts. Those are all things that we that we have created and designed to inspire players, to provide different types of challenges for players to solve or coaches to solve, to showcase certain things that present necessary challenges uh in terms of competitive level, to put ideas in front of people to challenge belief and to have people see different perspectives and ways of doing things. So I think those are all really important. So one of the core values of the league, right, is that a league has to be more than a competition circuit, right? A really good league has to do things like provide resources and services to the clubs in education, development, identification, all that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_05:We're supporting the development. So I I would I'm gonna change her statement. Sorry. But I'm gonna change your statement from the league has very little to do with player development to I think the league has a huge responsibility to support the clubs in their endeavor of player development.
SPEAKER_04:I think that's fair. Uh, and I will still give the lions share, the vast lions share of the credit of the of performance to the player and then to the club and coach.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, and all these things. It's it's impossible to you can break things down too much, right? And you can pull them apart, and then the whole the whole is not the sum of the parts, right?
SPEAKER_05:So last question from me, because I think this is really an important thing to think about, because I think a lot of times as coaches, we think we think about the player that's gonna make it, right? And that's that's our aspiration because that's you know that that tells us we're doing some of the right things. But we can't forget, and the question I have for you is how important is the experience of the youth soccer player, right? Because I think there's a difference between there's maybe a difference between this kind of all in, you know, gotta make it to X to be successful versus what the experience of it teaches you or doesn't teach you, right? And what is the definition of success as a player or a team? Because it could be vastly different between different players and different teams, right? So in your eyes, like how important is the experience and what is our responsibility in that?
SPEAKER_04:Well, I'll I'll answer it with maybe a slight variation because one of the things I've challenged coaches with a lot now is that are you creating an environment where the players want to play more? Are you facilitating opportunities for players to play more? Because one of the principles I believe in is that the best players play the most soccer. And if that is the case, then our job as soccer clubs and coaches is to provide opportunity for players who want to play to be able to play seven days a week, 365 days a year. And then within that, you want a variety of different experiences. You know, to go back to it can be three aside to 11 aside. It can be Omega Ball, which I just saw on TV the other day, right? It can be futsal, it can be indoor, it can be a variety of things. But our job as soccer people is to create that environment because the best players play the most soccer. And if you make an environment where more kids want to play because they're having fun, they will learn by playing. Okay. I I don't believe in the phrase the game is the teacher. I think that is a cop-out for a lot of people. Um, or that's probably less so than it used to be. But uh ultimately you want them to want to play. And then if you can add some really impactful short interventions as a coach to give some ideas here and there, to challenge, to inspire, uh, I think you're on you're moving in the right direction. So to me, if you go all the way back to the question at the beginning, what do you want in a in a club? I think you want a club that is creating more opportunity for you to play soccer because they're offering training sessions to the team, they're offering you the ability to train with other teams, they're offering clinics, they're offering uh whatever you want to call it, camps, opportunities, not all of it has to come, you know, with a dollar attached to it. But if your kid wants to play, there's a program to play there. There's a day that you can play there, and then adding to that people that are cognizant then of their role of can you add information to that environment, add inspiration to that environment or encouragement to that environment so that the players that want to play are learning and having a more effective time while they're playing.
SPEAKER_05:I will again tweak your statement because I think it's really important for everyone and to understand that there is a difference between having fun and being happy because doing what you're doing on this, you know, whatever it is you're putting a lot of time into, and this is we're talking about soccer, it isn't always going to be fun. It is going to have its challenges, its uh adversity, and getting tackled and faceplanting into the grass isn't fun. Losing. Yeah. Um, have being criticized, uh, having a parent or coach on a team who is not the best, right? All those things are possible. Uh you think you're a forward, your coach thinks you're not. So there is a difference between being happy and having fun. So I think all players should be seeking happiness and this and the game should make them playing the game should make them happy. And if that is not your primary driving force, then you're probably gonna run into some trouble down the road because the game will diverge as you get older.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, because there's more definitions of what people are are are going after than there are when they're seven, right? Um but at 17, there's some players that are only going to be happy in an environment that demands and pushes and challenges, and and there are others that say, Hey, I I I'm happy playing soccer, I just don't want all that. Yeah, right, right, right. Um, and that's fine. And then then to your point, it's about finding the program that gives that experience for you, right? And not feeling like I have to be in this program because that's the highest level, but also not being in this program and being told it's a high level when it's not, right? You know, it doesn't have the challenge and the demand and the expectation and and and what goes, what should go with that is more often than not the outcome. It's complicated. I think all these topics we talked about back and forth, and and there's very, very few bright lines of yes and no. There's a lot of very nuanced interpretation, there's a lot of art to it. But I I think that's why if you just go back and say, do you see change over time? And we've said this in the past the the the last place team in the league isn't gonna become the first place team in the league. If that happens, you're in some bizarre, you know, there's a lot of factors outside of uh uh uh the that team that are at play. But generally, is the team and the players within the team are they taking steps? And you're not gonna see it every day. That's the other part, right? The this learning process is not linear, you're gonna see it in John plateaus.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it's a roller coaster, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but over time, when you go from you know the beginning of the month to the end of the month to the next month, are you seeing things change? And if the answer is yes, that's a pretty good sign because there may be a lot of things changing just a little bit, you know, and a little bit here and a little bit here and a little bit here eventually can add up to a lot, you know, or you may see a big jump in one specific, you know, area of the play or the area of the game, or you see a group of players that pop up, you know, and so the important thing is that you're seeing change change somewhere.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Agreed. Okay, we'll take a quick break to hear from a couple more ECNL corporate partners, and then it's time for the Bracken Brainbuster.
SPEAKER_00:Did you know ECNL provides free recovery sessions? ECNL has partners for recovery and professional sports. Nothing can stop what we do together to bring positive things to our communities. You can't stop sports because hashtag you can't stop our voices. Follow Nike on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.
SPEAKER_05:Time for uh Bracken's brainbuster, which I'm sure everybody's ready for. This is gonna be a deep one today off this discussion. It just kind of came to me. And and I would just I'm um Christian's view gonna answer first. And read and Jake and Brennan love this question because they're gonna be like, oh my god, how am I gonna answer this? If if you could make one thing come true for the ECNL in the next, you know, I don't know, five years. If you look down the road and you said in five years, this is the one thing I want, what would it be? Yes, I love when I get silence. Means I've stumped, stumped it.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, you know what I would say is that there's a variety of different programs and and things we're looking at and we're trying to accomplish. And the beautiful part about our job is we get to get all this feedback and go out and decide what is it that we think we need to do based on what the you know, what the people on the ground tell us. So I think the best thing for our league is having more and more people bought into the vision and values of the league. Because when they're bought into those things, and when we have everybody aligned on those things, then I think we're gonna do a lot of really positive things, and we'll do some things we never even would have thought of two years earlier. Uh, but it starts with alignment and people looking long-term on alignment and not getting distracted by short-term nonsense.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, I like that. Let's go with Jacob, and this is gonna apply to what you I mean, obviously, you want Jacob this to be the number one podcast in the world in the next five years, of course. But did I just steal your thunder?
SPEAKER_02:You did not. I'm gonna piggyback a little bit off of Christian and then expand. In five years, I'd love to see the ECNL be as much of a household name as AAU basketball, in the sense that when somebody says ECL, they automatically know that it is the top youth development for soccer in the United States. And I think a lot of the way that we accomplish that is we already see it on the girl side, but I want to see a men's player who has come all the way through the ECNL from U13 playing on the national stage for the for the US men's national team or even a different country through the Heritage Project and having them play in the World Cup and have a significant impact in that. I think that really helps us. And I think it feeds a lot of the unfair narratives in American soccer of like you need pro REL or you can't have MLS players or whatever. I think that by having an ECL player that shows you can develop players from the grassroots youth soccer all the way up to the national stage is really important and will help push the game forward.
SPEAKER_05:Nice, good answer.
SPEAKER_03:Uh-oh, Reid. Five years from now, additionally, we want Breaking the Line to be number one on the podcast charts. But I had to give you something else. Just look back in five years and say, wow, like we were at one point only had a staff of like 40 people, and then it's like, okay, at this point, we're at who knows, a hundred people were doing this many events, it's this big, this many people are coming to the events. It's just continuing to scale and get bigger and better. I just know a lot of people that have I've shown videos too that I've made, and they're just like, wow, that's what you do. It's like it just seems like such a cool thing. And if we can just keep getting, you know, the zone and just NSG games to grow and grow and grow, and just the overall atmosphere of stuff like that to get better. I mean, I couldn't ask for anything more than that.
SPEAKER_05:I would say I would love to see alignment at the youth level. Where it was clear E C N L and the whole use space was aligned so we could support development even more in this country. So we'll see about that, but that would be my hope. I don't know, five years is too soon. Christian, for that, maybe? Maybe maybe sooner. Maybe. Maybe sooner. Maybe. Maybe it's coming. That was a deep question. You know, sometimes I try to keep it light, but today I I brought I brought it a little heavy. But great answers. I mean good discussion today, Christian.
SPEAKER_04:Well, we'll see. Always open to uh questions and comments on what people want to hear.
SPEAKER_05:Send your questions to infotheecnl.com. Info at the ecnl.com. We love to hear from you. If we do, we'll often discuss those things on this podcast. So send them in.
SPEAKER_01:Great job, Christian, Doug, Jacob, and Reed. Also want to thank our producer, Colin Thrash, and all the great folks at the ECNL, including all of you. In fact, for each and every one of you, I'm Dean Linke. We'll see you in two weeks for another edition of Breaking the Line, the ECNL Podcast. Thank you for listening to Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast. And remember, if you have a question that you want answered on Breaking the Line, the ECNL podcast, email us at info at the eCNL.com.