Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
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Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
The Lifespan of a Coach: When Should Change Happen? | Ep. 128
Let us know the topics of interest to you!
Breaking The Line returns for Episode 128 with ECNL President Christian Lavers and ECNL Vice President Doug Bracken getting inspiration for this week’s topic from breaking news on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean.
Hearing news of LSU firing football coach Brian Kelly and Nottingham Forest sacking manager Ange Postecoglou, the Breaking the Line crew asks the question: what is the average life span of a coach in the United States, and in soccer globally.
The answers may surprise you.
Lavers and Bracken then discuss if the same factors apply to youth coaches, and how can clubs evaluate their coaches, and when is it the right time to change coaches? And what role does coaching methodology play into both player and coaching development?
As always, make sure to submit any questions to https://ecnl.info/BTL-Questions, to subscribe to Breaking the Line on YouTube, and to follow the ECNL on all social channels.
Welcome to the October 29th, 2025 edition of Breaking the Line, the ETNL Podcast, with Kristen Labers, ETNL president, and CPO, and Doug Brackett, ETNL Five President, and CFO staff tackle all issues, and I need all issues. Today, we'll talk about the lifespan of a coach. So we can have data on the other sports across the country and across the world overseas. And then we'll take that into what is the lifespan of a youth coach for that to get some ideas on how to expand that, how to make that work. Sometimes they have answers, sometimes they debate it, sometimes they are looking for answers, which makes it for a great conversation, and that's what we try to do. So with that, I turn it over to the president and CEO of the East L, Christian Labors. Take it away, Christian. Well, thank you very much. Dean, Mr.
Speaker 5:Bracken, we are back. We are ready to go.
Speaker 3:Yes, we are. What's been going on, Christian, with you the last two weeks?
Speaker 5:You know what? I had my most entertaining Halloween experience this past weekend. I'm not really a Halloween fan, so I'll preface it with that. Same. Uh but what what they did I thought was really cool, which was pumpkin racing, where you drill little axles into the pumpkins, put little wheels on the pumpkins, and roll them downhill. Decorated, of course.
Speaker 3:I'm guessing they actually I'm guessing the ending is spectacular.
Speaker 5:Oh, there well, there were multiple heats, by the way. So, you know, and multiple heats didn't finish with a winner. Uh and so like do they crash at the end, or how do you stop? Some crash, some go sideways. But you like you drill uh little metal poles into the the pumpkin and sort of create your wheel, which it's a challenge to doing that. But I I did actually enjoy the soapbox derby of Halloween. Um pumpkin racing. Where you've never heard of that before.
Speaker 3:Where did you partake in this activity?
Speaker 5:Somebody's house with uh that has a hill on their driveway. And they invited a bunch of people over to create pumpkin racing. Okay. There are kits. Apparently, it was like a I think it was a Manhattan Beach thing at some point, but you can buy a pumpkin racing kit.
Speaker 3:Let's go.
Speaker 5:And so I did say that that is the most entertaining Halloween experience I've had in a long time, and it's something I could actually get into in the future, you know, with some planning of how you make the fastest pumpkin go straight.
Speaker 3:Okay. I too am kind of I think Halloween's a little overrated as a holiday. So I'm glad that you got to experience that. You shared that with me because it it does make it better.
Speaker 5:Well, and you know the best part about Halloween is that I start playing Christmas music the day after.
Speaker 3:Well, it is a fact that on November 1st Christmas goes up in the Brackenhouse. So stuff is happening on Saturday. I'm already I've already got everything prepared. The decor of um bats and stuff out front right now will soon be turning into uh Santa's and such. All right.
Speaker 5:I agree with that. We have in common. Do you feel like you can decorate that outside of your house that's no, it's not you don't decorate, you don't decorate in SoCal outside, I don't think, in my opinion. It's green and beautiful.
Speaker 3:Like it doesn't the snowman on a green grass yard doesn't seem to what about us mortals that live in places like Cincinnati, Ohio?
Speaker 5:Where it's it feels like it's supposed to feel.
Speaker 3:Is it too early to put Christmas decorations on the outside of your house? Or does that because I've traditionally put the outside decorations more after Thanksgiving? I think that makes sense.
Speaker 5:I mean, if you want to go a little early, you can, but uh, you know, it might be a little early to go outside. Although, you know, if you got a Home Depot right now, they got lots of Christmas trees for sale already.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, 100%. They're they're driving, they're they're well invested in driving earlier and earlier Christmas and more and more inflatable whatever's. I don't do that. My stuff my stuff is classy. Yeah, no, I don't like inflatables. Stay classy, Santiago. That was good. Thank you for sharing that Halloween story. My kids are now out of the trick-or-treating age. I think we'll just go over to some friends' house, maybe, and they're they have younger kids who will go trick-or-treat. How about you? You're you're in it.
Speaker 5:Oh no, we'll be trick-or-treating, deeply in it. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 5:And they're dressing up as not sure exactly. I think we got a Jedi. We might have some other random ghoul, I think. I don't know.
Speaker 3:Okay. All right. What about your youngest? I feel like she could be something really cool.
Speaker 5:Uh, I think she wanted to be a dragon, is last I heard, but that changes day by day. So I've sort of staying out of that.
Speaker 3:All right, fair enough. Up and down. Good luck with that. Uh I'll need it. Yeah, you will you will need it. The good news is you and your wife get to go through the candy and tell the kids this candy is not good for you.
Speaker 5:You know what you don't know. We don't need any increase in sugar of any way in my house at all.
Speaker 3:No, you don't. You probably don't. Neither, neither do we, to be fair. All right. Let's get into this today. Um, there's a couple things we were uh knocking around that we're gonna talk about today, but we're gonna start by talking about kind of the lifespan of a coach. Um and not only as it relates to uh, you know, we'll get a little bit into the the pro and how short the lifespan of a coach can be um in soccer and and in all sports, honestly, at that level. But also just to kind of dig a little bit deeper on the youth side is what is the lifespan of a youth coach should it look like, and you know, all the little uh nuances and different things that come along with that. So I mean, why don't we start just I I it's always I think to to me a great place to start at the very highest level to just like level set and just see um um and talk about coaching longevity if you and you have you have two examples that almost fit the stats we're gonna share here perfectly just from the last few weeks.
Speaker 5:You have uh Anj Pasticino, uh I'm not pronouncing that right, right?
Speaker 3:Pasticagalo, I think it's Pasticagalo, sorry.
Speaker 5:I said Pasticino, I just combined him with Alpacino and but he was let go, sacked, as I say, from Forrest, I think in his eight third games, eight games, eight games, okay. Eight games, and then as of I think yesterday, you know, Mr. Brian Kelly sacked from LSU after I think this is his fourth year, I believe.
Speaker 3:I think that's right.
Speaker 5:Um and actually those those two time frames are actually right in line with the stats that Jacob has provided us. So I'll go, I'll go through some of these stats and kudos to Jacob again on on getting these average tenure of coach in professional sport, and then we'll go, we'll start with like the typical American sports, and then we'll compare that to soccer leagues around the world because it is dramatically different. So let's see, NFL, average uh tenure 4.3 seasons, MLB, 3.7, NHL, 3.5, the leash is getting shorter. Yes, NBA 3.2. You know, those all feel to me fairly reasonable. I mean, you're giving somebody a chance to make progress, and and you've got uh, you know, in theory, there a couple of years to you got a year of sort of transition and then two years of build, and that gets you to three something, and then that change is made. Like I can see why there'd be uh a lot of uh like the number would be in that three to four range, that makes sense. That is not what we see in soccer. So if we go now to pro leagues around the world, the leading the bastion of stability in terms of pro coaching tenure is Serie A in Italy with a whopping 1.8 seasons. I mean, that's crazy. Yeah, and by the way, that is the high point. So then you get MLS at 1.7, La Liga in Spain 1.2, the Bundesliga 0.8 seasons, which somebody could do the math, but that to me sounds about like nine months. League one in France, same thing, about nine months, and the Premier League setting the bar here of fastest people to be fired 0.6 seasons.
Speaker 3:So just over half a season. Just over half coach makes it just a season in the break.
Speaker 5:Like not even to the all-star break, if we speak in American parlance.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's craziness.
Speaker 5:Number of coaching changes from 2023. Jacob, is this right? This is coaching changes from 2023 to to date.
Speaker 4:No, that the stats are from 2023. The time frame is 1996 to 2023. Okay. So 1996. It's pulled from the beginning of MLS to keep the time frame for all of these organizations.
Speaker 5:So we're saying just under 30 years. Just about 30 years. Just about 30 years. 561 coaches in Syria.
unknown:Wow.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's I mean, what's what jumps out to me on this is that the uh if you take the the average of these soccer leagues around the world, you are about one quarter the tenure of the average American pro sport team. I mean, you talk about a short leash, a lot of turnover and change. It tells you a lot where the power is and where a lot of the blame is.
Speaker 3:Here's my question I was gonna ask you is it's you can see where let's use, and I'm I'm by no means a Man United fan, but let's use Man United as an example here. They have churned through a lot of coaches since Sir Alex left, right? And now they uh have Ruben Amrit. And it feels like he's maybe turning a corner here. At what point like how do you differentiate between a guy who has the the ingredients but needs time to get it happening versus the guy who's just maybe in over his head or whatever, and then you you could add into that pot of stew basically having the right players, which is we all acknowledge that talent and and the level of your players will ultimately determine your success. But obviously at those levels, the level of the players can be can be fairly similar across different teams, and that's when coaching probably comes into effect more. But you you see somebody at some place like Arsenal who has shown a lot of um patience with Miguel Arteta, he has really now become considered one of the best coaches in the world. So what are your thoughts there? Is it is it at Nottingham Forest are they saying, listen, Ange is just not he's he doesn't have the ingredients, so we have no we can't be patient with him. I I don't know. I mean, how do you how do you thread that needle?
Speaker 5:That's a really good question. I mean, if you if you look at this in the Premier League, league one and Bundesliga, where you're not even one season is the average tenure. I mean, what do you get? One transfer window.
Speaker 3:I mean, in that case, yeah. I mean, yeah.
Speaker 5:If you get if you if you can't make moves in the transfer window, or if you get them wrong, I mean you don't get a chance to you don't get a chance to even get it right.
Speaker 3:It might not even be you who's getting them wrong either, but correct.
Speaker 5:Correct. Your sporting director, or or maybe you don't have the the funds or or resources or whatever it may be. I don't know how to answer your question, to be honest with you, Doug. It's it's uh uh to me it makes you it makes me say, are are are the coaches really are they really that much to blame and that much to to credit? I I I think I think you do uh raise an interesting point of contrasting Man United with Arsenal uh in terms of patience because Arteta didn't have every year wasn't a great year. They haven't won anything yet, right?
Speaker 3:No, they haven't. No, they haven't.
Speaker 5:No, Man United.
Speaker 3:Maybe Cups, uh maybe they won the FA Cup or uh Carabao Cup or something, but no, nothing big.
Speaker 5:Nothing substantial. You know, then the best Man United has been is probably when Mourinho was there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they won the Europa League, came second in the Premier League, I think.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean Man United fans would be would you know pay a lot of money to get back to those lofty days.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 5:It begs the question of how much of the success and failure of a coach is impacted by the culture of the organization, by immediate buy-in or support from the locker room. If you start with a lot of these teams have similar levels of play, do you think that's fair? Similar levels of player?
Speaker 3:Uh uh yes, maybe not all the right, maybe not the right mix, but yes, a lot of players that are high level, yes. I mean, I think you're seeing like if you you know, again, if you watch Liverpool, they've sold a lot of guys, brought a lot of new guys in, they won the Premier League last year, they're struggling now. You know, maybe they do they not have the right players now, and you know, I mean, their coach didn't get, you know, bad over the course of the yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I th I I think if I if you had to ask me, I would err in giving um a little bit longer leash and time if you feel like you've done the right if you've done the right process in hiring. I mean, I guess if you turn in coach after coach after coach, you have to look and say, maybe it's not the coach. Maybe there's something about the culture, about the organization that is part of the issue. I think that was something I saw on social media today that I think the same athletic director hired Jimbo Fisher and had a huge buyout when he was fired from Texas St. M. And then the same guy hired Les Miles at LSU. So collectively, there's like $130 million in guaranteed contract payments between those two coaches. I mean, you talk about a whopping two mistakes financially, and yet those guys have had good success in other places. So, you know, does the coach how much of the coach's success is actually dependent upon being in the right fit for their personality or their vision or whatever it may be, the culture that they want, and and how maybe it's a testament that changing culture is certainly going to happen in one year. And so if you don't land in something that fits right away in a lot of these sports, you're not gonna have the time to evolve it and adopt it. Although I think if you even go back to Sir Alex Ferguson, his first several years at Manchester United weren't extraordinarily successful.
Speaker 3:It took time, yeah. It took time for sure.
Speaker 5:But we we talk about this. I mean, it's interesting. It's interesting one of how much shorter it is in soccer, you know, which is I think that that's uh that's crazy. I mean, Jacob earlier voiced the opinion that maybe that's because of the impact of ProRel in soccer, that if it's going badly, there is a need, or a at least the perception of a need, to do something before it goes so bad that you're kicked out of the league. That doesn't happen in other in the American sports. So, you know, there's probably a little bit longer leash you get just by that fact.
Speaker 3:Well, you saw um Ange get gets fired after losing eight eight straight or whatever at Nottingham Forest, and then they bring in Sean Dyes, who is there to keep them up almost. He, you know, he's probably not a long-term solution, he's a short-term solution. And uh he won. He won his first game, right? So there's some justification, I guess, there. But yeah, I think you're right. I think pro uh promotion relegation and the money that's tied to that is significant.
Speaker 5:Going down to the championship is it'd be be a financial Yeah, and all these, and whatever League Two is, is it's a dramatic financial drop. Yeah, and and I guess then you you flip that and say, why why are we talking about this? And one, we thought is interesting, but two, then you look at that the same sort of perception. And I do think that there is whether it's intended or not, the average parent looks at their, they don't look at the the coach of their kid. I mean, they know it's not pro soccer, but they look at their uh uh at their kid's coach through a similar lens, I think, a lot of times that they look at the pro coach, which is if the team's not winning, it's gotta be a coaching issue. Maybe we just need to change the coach. And and I do think that is overly prevalent in youth soccer, but it does beg the question of how long should a coach be with a team, or when does it seem like it's a good time to make a change or a need to make a change in in a youth team?
Speaker 3:Oh, a lot to unpack there. I think there are a lot of people who say, oh, two years is is is a you know, change the coach every two years. I don't I don't really necessarily uh agree with that. It's a little more nuanced than that, and I think you have to look at the team and their progression as they keep going through. I I I've coached teams for two years or four years or ten years, right? Some of it is about does the team continue to progress according to their talent level and ability, and do they continue to get better? So I think that's the the big answer to the to the question. I think it would be hard to say, well, there is there's an automatic, you know, this many. And the reason I say that is because I think probably at the youth level, there aren't enough good coaches to probably set some two-year standard or whatever. You know, if you had five great coaches and a defined path, then maybe changing coaches every two years makes makes some sense, but that's just not reality.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think I I generally agree with most of what you're saying. Uh I do think in the developmental age groups, you know, and the younger you get, the more developmental it is. I would err towards changing more, if that makes sense. Why? I'd say that given the assumption that you have good coaches to go from one to the next, and that is a big assumption. Big assumption. Okay, yes. Um, I I'll actually use another uh uh uh parallel thing. I was talking to Doug Lamoff uh a while back, and he was talking about the infatuation with uh class size in school, and his point similar to this was there's not enough great teachers, and so in some ways, the more you demand the smaller class sizes, which demands more teachers, the more you're putting inexperienced or less qualified teachers in charge of a classroom. Correct. And that you can make a strong argument that an expert teacher with a bigger class is going to be more beneficial and impactful on the on the on the students learning than having a smaller class, but a significantly less experienced teacher or less less uh expert teacher. And I think if you take that same analogy into or take that as an analogy into soccer, I think I would agree with you that you're better off having an expert coach who's really good at teaching over a longer time horizon than than changing. I've that sounds obvious as I say it, but I do think with young kids and with the fact that there is a positive for different different personalities, you know, different uh ideas to be brought to the kid from year to year. We all have strengths and weaknesses as coaches as well, by the way, or or we have, I don't want to, I don't want to go down the road of biases, but like I may coach in a certain way and like to do certain types of the game more than others in terms of what I teach. And let's say you're the opposite. It's good if I if I'm a very attack-oriented coach and I'm teaching all sorts of things in that area, but I don't do a lot on the defending side, um, and you're more on the defending side. You know, if I'm the only coach a kid gets for three years, they're gonna hopefully be really good at attacking, but maybe they wouldn't be as good as defending, which is something they need to learn, right? I'm making that a little bit oversimplified. Yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 3:Makes sense.
Speaker 5:Um, but I do think having kids have different personalities and have change as uh young players, that's a there's a positive to that. But that's under the assumption that you have a really, really good coach and teacher from one year to another when they uh when they do change.
Speaker 3:And I would add to that a at least fairly unified methodology, right?
Speaker 5:Yeah, so it's not dramatically different, yeah.
Speaker 3:So it's not dramatically different, right? Which I guess I I mean, I guess I would ask you. I mean, there's no you you don't have any scientific uh numbers for this, but how many youth clubs have that?
Speaker 5:An abundance of coaching expertise?
Speaker 3:Yes, and a unified and a unified yeah, not a lot. Right, right. Not a lot, right.
Speaker 5:Well, and the the other reason that change can be good, again, if you look at a school, every year you basically are changing, right? At the young ages, you have a your homeroom or your primary class, but it you have that teacher for a year and then you move on. And almost I I would I'm not aware of any school that uh my kids have been at or looked at where there's you have the same teacher right year to year to year. And again, this classroom, there are analogies between a classroom and a soccer field, but there are you know, there's an end to those analogies, as we've talked about. I mean, you don't keep score in a classroom, the which adds a you know different feel towards things. But coaches, and I would assume the same thing with teachers, they all have, you know, when you are working with a kid or a player for an extended period of time, you start to have an opinion about that player right or wrong that can be a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy, and changing and have somebody else working with a player and sort of bringing a fresh perspective is also helpful in that.
Speaker 3:So I do think there is a value to change, but I you know that as we do you think do you think that coaches that you've encountered have that kind of self-awareness to be able to say?
Speaker 5:I think you all you get more self-awareness over time, yeah. But I think I would say for all of us, if you're with a team year three, year four, it can get stale in some sense, or it you can have the the sense that hey, this player's in this role for for all these times, and and I look at that player and I have an opinion immediately because I've seen the player, I've interacted with the player, I've worked with the player, good, bad, indifferent. Like that is who this player is. I expect this type of things from them, good or bad. And sometimes a change is good to that. And I think as we are slicing this onion, the the question comes down to when do you stay, you know, assuming that you're you don't have an abundance of of overly qualified, really expert coaches, because you don't, and that's not a criticism of coaching, by the way. I think it's a reflection of how hard it is and how difficult of a career path it is to be a youth coach. When do you start to say, hey, it's probably time for a change? And that might not even be critical of the coach, because it could be, hey, year three, you know, it's it's good to shake it up a little bit and give these guys a different perspective, a different look, and clear the deck, as you would say, just like you do every year in tryouts. You know, every year in tryouts, you clear the deck and say, okay, what's the best group to put together here?
Speaker 3:Well, I don't know. Yes, I think, you know, depends on philosophically tryouts. I say, you know, this player has to be better than the players, players that we have. I'd say I'd I feel the same way a little bit. Here's a team, they're progressing, they're doing well. I'm changing if I know my next resources is one that can continue that process, right? What I'm saying is change for change sake or change because I don't know. Yeah, I don't like that.
Speaker 5:Change for change sake's not good. Yeah. What I'm saying is that if we're honest, we all get an opinion of, hey, that is that kid, right? And you can jump to conclusions, even in scenarios where it that's actually not what has just occurred. But because you've had so much experience with that player, you just make assumptions, right? And that when you start to feel that as a coach, you got to fight back against that, probably to some degree. Yeah, but it also that may be a sign for as a coach, you asked about self-reflection. That might be a time that it's like, hey, is it time for me to make a change as a coach?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's tough. And just having the mindset and the mentality that you're always open to change your mind, right? About a player, about the way you're playing, about what, whatever. I think that's an important thing to be able to do. Although I know psychologically it's probably hard to do to change your mind once.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and you talk about the importance of methodology. And one of the things that I I find to be really challenging when you look at like zone zone one, whereas we know I'm spending a lot of time now, and older age groups, is there's uh everything, this is gonna be sound self-obvious, but it's so much more elemental in terms of what you have to teach a young player. I mean, there's not a lot of U17 and U18 coaches that are teaching biomechanics of striking a ball or how to manipulate a ball because those players generally have those skills to the degree they don't. It's really going to be up to them to do the work outside of training to do that. But somebody at some point needs to teach a kid what a knee over a ball means. What does a locked ankle mean, for example? Or how do you recognize I would say the same thing at 17, 18, there's not a lot of instruction going on of how do you how do you play a 2v1, right? How do you read a defender in a 2v1? Now, somebody's gonna say, well, of course there should be and whatever, and in specific applications. But uh, I'm just saying teaching a kid for the first time ever how to create the how to how to see, how to perceive an environment to recognize where they have support and maybe a numerical advantage to create a 2v1 and how to execute a 2v1 based on the defenders' movements, the space, the the teammate. That's really, really hard. And I think it highlights what we've talked about before that there's an expertise in teaching that is very different than the expertise in game management. And it is something that needs need that we need a lot more of it in the American game.
Speaker 3:And so uh would you advocate for a formulaic way to look at this from a club perspective?
Speaker 5:Well, I what I would I guess what I'm saying on that is when you don't have enough of that to begin with, and I'm saying that because it's really hard, you know, because we got we all go home from sessions sometimes and say, oh man, that just didn't work. Whatever I tried to do today, it didn't work, or whatever I thought was going to be uh effective today, it wasn't effective. You know, even the even the best coaches have that reflection at times. If we're saying we don't have enough coaches that are great at teaching, if zone one and younger is the hardest time for teaching because you have to teach so many things because it's basic, then you look to your point about methodology. If you don't have something that's unifying what's going on from the transition from under eight to under nine to under 10 to under 11 to under 12, you do risk kids going through a system out of five years, they might only have a year or two where there's really detailed teaching. That doesn't mean that the coaches are are bad. It doesn't mean they're not they're not trying hard, but it it means that the coach the player is going through a system that there is not a consolidated view of, hey, at the end of this year, can all of the players in this age group demonstrate these behaviors? Because if they if they can't, that should that needs to be addressed when they go into the next age group. And if they can't, is that because they haven't been systematically taught that across the club? Is that because the players came in behind already? You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 3:So you would say as a if you're a club leader, you've got to have some metrics, or I I don't know if it's as specific as metrics, but you have to have some idea of where they should be at different points along the process. And that's how you judge the coach. I don't I'm Yeah, well, I think if you look I I mean
Speaker 5:One of the challenges of developing any methodology is that ultimately you got to meet the player where they are at, because whatever you think a U twelve player should look like, for example, in Utopia, U twelves should have learned all of these skills and ideas. And then in U 12, we're going to teach these. And at 13 and above, you know, we go on to other ones. Like that's a utopian starting point. And it probably doesn't exist in any environment except the very, very most professional where you can pick from a huge number of players, right? Because that means you'll pick the best. And you have a you, if you have a large number to pick from, the best are going to be more advanced. But if you take an average club and you say, okay, I know what I think a 12-year-old should know already, and what I would like to teach generally in the U 12A troop, you never get that group. Because you get a group of players of which a couple of them, you know, maybe a year or two behind on some concepts that in your methodology you would say they should already have been taught that, and I need to address that, or that kid will be forever behind. Right? You don't get this neatly packaged. But would you have get them if you started with them at eight? I think there's a probably a chicken and the egg issue here of if you started a methodology at a let's just start at U8 or U7, wherever you start, and say, I'm gonna make sure that every single team and every single player over the course of this 12 months, by the end of it, they can do these seven things or five things or 10 things. And I'm gonna charge my coaches with that, and I'm gonna be intentional of evaluating that at the end. Well, then you can move up to U8, right? And you can say, okay, I know all these kids can do this. You still are gonna have the complication of tryouts and change, and you're gonna get a really athletic kid that hasn't been taught that, but you know, is worth it, or you're gonna have that, and every year the the size of that challenge of change is gonna be high, uh, or it's gonna get higher. But I I don't think that there are a lot of clubs, because it's really hard to do, that are demanding and then assessing in any formal way what has been taught across all ages over the course of the season.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right.
Speaker 5:And I think it's easier to do at the younger age groups because you can identify very specific basic technical activities. I mean, there's can you hit an inside of the foot pass? Yeah, and can you control with the inside of the foot?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:And um, and I think anyone doubting this, you just look at the number of players who are playing U-13 or U14 soccer, and they can't strike a ball properly with the inside of the foot because somebody's never told them the toe should be up or in the ankle locked, heel down, whatever you want to call it. Right. But they don't do that. And they say they've played soccer for five years, and you say, Well, how did that happen? But at the same time, you can't just blame the coach because the player has to be receptive to learn and listen.
Speaker 3:Should a youth soccer club have a defined path of coaching? So you're here and then you know, two years you'll be here, and two years you'll be here.
Speaker 5:As a coach or for players?
Speaker 3:For players, like you know what I mean? So you a defined pathway, like you enter the pathway wherever you enter it, it's then defined where you'll go based on.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I I think in terms of learning objectives, I think you'd like to have that.
Speaker 3:I think the challenge with you like what about what about a defined coaching pathway?
Speaker 5:Well, that goes back, I think, to our other discussion of so many coaches look at the coaching profession and the pathway as going from young to old. And I think what really we need, and this might be an exciting thing for us to take a look at in the pre-CNL, but how do you make a zone one or a pre-CNL coach path going not from you're a U8 coach and you want to become a U18 coach, but you're a good U8 coach and you want to become a great U8 coach, and then you want to become, you know, one of the best in the country at really impacting change of an eight-year-old soccer player technically and and mentally, and all the things that go with it. I think that's a way more important question. How do we reward, incentivize, and make them feel important when you're coaching in some of these younger age groups? Because when we talk, you asked a question the Bracken Brainbuster last week about the Ballon d'Or and what does it take to improve? And I'll just take that general question: what does it take to improve soccer here? And we can talk about things that need to get better without you know saying, oh, everybody doing that's not good and we're so bad. Because I think there's lots of improvement that's that's happened. But I do think all of us need to look and say, how do we how do we make the teaching better? How do we make the teaching better? Because that's different than the game management. And so many times when you look at coaching, you know, it's the same thing when you look at uh you know, uh watching an American sport. I spent a lot of time this uh yesterday watching the Steelers Packers or watching a college football game, or how many Americans are watching that and say, Oh, you know, the the reason that play didn't work is because the guard had bad technique and how they got off and blocked and where their hands were versus hey, that running play sucked. I I'm using football as an American analogy, right? But how many times we've used the example of is the first touch as bad as it looks in a player, or is the first touch were it's not actually as bad as it looks. The problem is the player's perception and understanding that they put themselves in such a tiny place that there is no room for error at all. And it requires an almost perfect first touch in order to get out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, maybe it's a positioning issue.
Speaker 5:It's a positioning issue, which ultimately goes back to a perception and decision issue. How many people are looking at it through that lens and saying, you know what? I really need to fix here is what they see and what that means to them versus oh they just have a bad first touch.
Speaker 3:I think you hit on what the real challenge is in this country at the youth level. And it it was kind of I just had an aha moment, I guess, is how do you incentivize or recognize or reward the U8 coach to be go from good to great to one of the best, and really because I think that is the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem is either we are recognizing, rewarding whatever people in those different zones of coaching, and then the panacea in a youth uh environment is to coach the top teams at the older age groups, that is the end all be all, and that tells me that I'm good because that's where I got to, and so when I come in as the U8 coach, I'm that's what I aspire to do. So, how do we change that calculus? Because I I think that's the fundamental challenge.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I I agree with you, and I I don't know, but I think one place we should look at it.
Speaker 3:Besides having a kid that plays in it, right? Which which is very well forces you to learn real fast.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's very and um by the way, I think there's probably a lot of people who find themselves in that scenario, but I do think one place we should look is what what are the best schools do? What do the best schools do to make the first grade teacher or the second grade teacher feel valued, supported, important, and want that want to stay and be the best first grade teacher in the country? And I because I'm sure that's that I'm sure that's not totally foreign.
Speaker 3:Isn't that in their studies like it's elementary education versus isn't that well there's a there's probably a point to that in that zone, like I know that we're talking some some about some coaching education within the ECNL that we're trying to put together that is specific to different age groups and zones of coaching.
Speaker 5:Could that be one of the one of the you know what one this this makes me think about one of the challenges Ross Pauley has talked about with scouting in ID2 is explaining to a scout or showing a scout just like a player, what is great look like or what is best look like? Yeah, and I think there's the answer to that is the best tool to do that is video, and say this is what this behavior looks like done by what we would consider to be a top-level player of this age. And I think there's probably value to that from a coaching perspective, where you say, What does best look like at U8, U10, U12 in terms of the training environment, in terms of the coach in the environment, not just like a video of the players. But I, you know what another thing that would be interesting, and what I talk about this uh, you know, when we're reflecting with coaches all the time. If you took videos of the team at the beginning of the season to the end of the season, how different do they look? You know what I mean? Or take videos of a training environment from the beginning of the season to the end of the season, and how different does that look? When you're with anybody, you don't see them age day to day, right? But it's when you cut you haven't seen somebody for six months or a year and you see them and you can tell they look different, right?
Speaker 6:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:But it's the same thing with the training environment as a coach or as a parent, especially, you know, you forgot what they looked like on day one by day 300. Right. Day 300 has presented its own set of issues, challenges, ups and downs, and emotions or whatever, and you're evaluating day 300 as day 300. But if you look back to day one, how different is it? And I think there's some value maybe in some longitudinal looks at that in terms of evaluating coaches. I mean, because without this stuff, without a rethink in some of these areas, and I'm gonna give an example, and we, you know, we were talking about technology today and whether we would talk and get into this, but I I just have to say this because I have to say it. You know, I see video, complicated video systems being used in U6 games and U7 games, where there are there are there are cameras set up to capture these games that you know the the the camera purpose originally is you know to help kids with identification by capturing older players who need to be seen for so they can be scouted. But they're being set up for six-year-olds.
Speaker 3:But what do you think that's about?
Speaker 5:Well, when I see some of the you know, the the excitement about every goal that's scored, you know, I think I don't know if it's for posterity's sake or what, but yeah, you know, when you look and say, is the right thing being rewarded, celebrated, and taught, and there's a camera recording it, and it's got a system to track the touches of each player. That to me is you know, the answer to that is no. That that there's a there's a miss there's a misconnection there in terms of what should be versus what is.
Speaker 3:And and by the way, even if you're gonna try to use that as a tool, you're not doing it with that.
Speaker 5:No, I mean, sit down with those seven-year-old. Look, look, we we as a player, you remember this probably from college or whatever, but video sessions are hard enough with uh senior youth players and adult players. It's hard enough making a video session impactful, right? And keeping attention. And so I would say, you know, much less than fifty, much more than 15 minutes, even with an adult, you're probably stretching it. You're gonna tell me you have what five seconds with a seven-year-old to show them a video? I mean, what are you doing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's it's wild.
Speaker 5:And listen, we can all be accused of doing things at some point in our career that we are like, man, what was I doing? Okay, this is not this is not us sitting out on a high. This is this is you know, looking at it.
Speaker 3:But I think we have a real fundamental challenge with our league and just within youth soccer in general, of putting the importance, I don't know, I'm gonna say it right, the focus and celebrating those age groups and those coaches and making talented coaches want to coach in those age groups.
Speaker 5:Yes, I and I would say I think there's a lot of very good people working very hard that we sh we as a country, we as a le leading organization need to figure out what needs to be done to empower them, to train them better, to support them so that they can do what they want to do even at a higher level and not feel maybe redundant, but not feel unsupported, unvalued, and certainly unequipped, because it is hard to teach anybody, especially in a collective environment. The challenge of coaching is managing the individual within the collective.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Right.
Speaker 5:I mean, that's the hardest. It's it's really coaching becomes a lot simpler if all you're doing is worrying about the collective and saying, okay, I just got to organize the collective, put the best kids on the field, and then we try and figure it out on game day. That's a lot simpler job than figuring out how do I manage these individuals so that they all are moving in a good direction. They all are getting better, and then I'm trying to get them in a collective because the game is ultimately a collective sport, but I have to manage each one of them based on where they're at and their strengths and weaknesses. I have to put that as a very primary thing as I'm looking at putting together the collective, especially when I'm dealing with zone one or or even most youth age groups.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think it is a really a massive, massively important challenge that we put more education resources into those into those entry-level zone one, that coaching population, if you will. I think it's it's just incredibly important. And then, you know, make sure that we have people that desire not to do great at those age groups so they can move up to the next age group, but do great at those age groups so that they can get even better in those age groups and continue to impact players at those age groups. And I just think that's a real challenge. And I I mean you said it on here, and it just made me go, wow, that's you know what? I think that's you hit the nail on the head there.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and uh, we can go even broader and say, you know, the the quality of what's happening in most clubs now compared to 20 years ago is way higher, right? The the club is a much more professional organization, it's far more efficient. They they are doing, I think soccer's way better in a in a lot of regards, but I I think you can still look and say it's a it's still in the average club, even the best clubs, it's challenge enough to manage one team in one age group with all the issues it has. There is an enormous need and opportunity for how do you still create a better connected methodology? How do you create a better support network for the coaches? And I'm not talking about emotional support and that sort of stuff. I'm talking about specific skill acquisition. How am I supporting them so that they are growing the skills necessary to be great at what they do? And that by necessity means evaluating them to identify where there's gaps and where there are needs. That I think there's still huge needs in this country for clubs to figure out how to solve that and tackle that. And some aren't gonna want to hear that, but it takes resources to do this. That is a challenge, a continuing challenge. But it also takes prioritization.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 5:And saying, hey, you know what, I'm gonna put more time into this particular stage or this specific process that will result. And unfortunately, when you're talking about improving coaches, that measurement and and the rewards for that, you know, they're not totally long term because I think a better coach does have an impact quickly. But to really see significant ones, it does take more than a season.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 5:You know, so you're you're betting on the long term, and and again, that's that's also challenging in in any in any environment, you know, when people are looking for results now.
Speaker 3:You're into your second kind of year, right? Of this. What what uh of zone one coaching? What what's your bid what's been your biggest like takeaway, your biggest learning from it? And do you think you'll make it through this season without getting uh fired? Because you're getting into that area.
Speaker 5:I'm getting I'm getting the end of the year.
Speaker 3:You better start getting results, Mr. Yeah.
Speaker 5:I mean, there's some there's been so many takeaways. I tell you, one number one takeaway is the respect I have for the coaches that work in zone one and how hard that job is. Like anything, you don't you can understand something, you know, through narrative or through story or through um, you know, third person, but really getting in, you learn it deeper. And I think a reminder of how complex the sport is and how important it is to break things down to very discrete coaching points, you know, and I'm not talking about you know separating technique from decision making or anybody who's gonna start to get overly philosophical on me. I'm saying if if you're talking about a group of kids who really doesn't know much at all about anything, where do you start? And then how do you stay focused so that where you start you make an impact and then you can build on that? So you know, you're going level by level. I think that has been a really, really um challenging.
Speaker 3:You start at the beginning, Christian. You start at the beginning.
Speaker 5:Yes, it is a famous song.
Speaker 3:For all you coaches out there who are uh hopefully at the at the youth level not experiencing a short leash, although you know there are times I mean heck, I've had teams that I've been with and coached where I just it just wasn't a good fit or I didn't get the most out of them and it was time to to move. It's a lot tougher to swallow that when you're young and you don't and you have you know, you're carrying your ego with you as you get older you you have a little bit more perspective, I guess. But uh changes will happen. But uh man, to all you uh pro coaches in the Premier League who are gonna be fired within the next half a season, we're sorry for you and you know keep your head up, right? This is tough. Zone one is tough. Coaching in the Premier League must be uh lonely, as they say. I think very lonely. Yes, I I think that's right. All right, well, that's a good conversation about that. Let's hear from our sponsors then. We'll come back. We'll bracken brain buster to uh little festive bracken brain buster today to uh to wrap it up.
Speaker:Nike is a proud sponsor of ECNL. Nothing can stop what we do together to bring positive change to our communities. You can't stop sport because hashtag you can't stop our voices. Follow Nike on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. The ECNL is pleased to announce QuickGoal as the official goal provider and partner for ACNL girls and ECNL boys. A new partnership created to support the growth and development of the country's top players, clubs, and coaches at all national events, including national playoffs and national finals. The QuickGold Coaches Corner will provide hospitality and social space for ECNL girls, ECNL boys, and collected coaches. QuickGold will also be the presenting sponsor of the national championship-winning ECNL Girls and ECNL Boys Coaches of the Year. And the ECNL Girls and ECNL Boys Goals of the Year. QuickGoal looks forward to helping the ECNL continue to elevate the standards of youth soccer and provide more opportunities to players on and off the field in the coming years.
Speaker 3:Drive with confidence. Find your dealer at ContinentalTire.com. Continental Tire Smart Choice in Tires. Sponsors, thank you for your support. All right, everybody, we ready? Festive rack and brainbuster. I was thinking about this today and I was like, have I asked this question before? I feel like I should probably have like a spreadsheet with all the past questions so that I don't repeat myself. But as we all get really on the edge of our seat as the holiday season comes on, I'm gonna ask what your favorite holiday is and why. And we know that me and Christians we do not care for Halloween. So we'll start there. I'm gonna go with Reed Self.
Speaker 2:My favorite holiday is Christmas for a few reasons. You just can't beat the vibes of it, the music, the weather, just being around family. That's really what it all comes down to. And the movies are great, it's just hard to beat.
Speaker 3:And what is your favorite Christmas movie? See I pivot right there, CI Yeah, no, okay.
Speaker 5:Here's what he says he says die hard, and then we debate whether that's Christmas movie.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no, no. I it's 100% a Christmas movie. Home Alone, maybe. If I thought about it some more, maybe something else could pop up.
Speaker 3:All right, I'll put you on the spot. I'll put you on the spot. Home alone, you can't go wrong with that. That's good. Classic. Good one. Uh let's go to Christian labors. Well, I already know the answer.
Speaker 5:Like a really short answer. It's Christmas because of all reasons. Hey, God, God's gift is given on Christmas, as they say, and then it's a great moment with family and uh movie for Christmas. You got diehard, you got home alone. You got love, actually, it's a pretty good Christmas movie, I think. Okay, okay, you know, and it's hard to beat, it's a wonderful life.
Speaker 3:Okay, you did a Dean Linke four answers for one question.
Speaker 5:So there's so many, and by the way, I didn't say any of the Hallmark movies, right?
Speaker 3:Which really you kind of love to watch just to say how what's funny is if you know Christian and I've known him for a long time now, it's really weird that he is a Hallmark movie kind of guy because he doesn't like his persona. I don't give you that warm fuzzy. No, I don't, I don't know about that. I don't think you do. So, you know, but good on you, and maybe it'll help soften the edges there. All right, let's go to Jacob.
Speaker 4:Uh, I'm gonna go on the record saying I'm extremely offended because my favorite holiday is Halloween. And seeing all of you guys trash on it has been really hard for my heart.
Speaker 3:Well, tell us why it's your favorite, and we'll try to see if we could be swayed.
Speaker 4:It's honestly a lot of the same reasons that Reed talked about. It's the weather, you know, fall is my favorite season. It's cold, it's cool, but it's not super cold. I just love kind of the spooky vibes of everything. I love going to pumpkin patches and and apple picking. I'm also a sucker for a really good theme. So being able to dress up in costume with a theme is uh super fun. And I've just always liked it as a kid and I love candy, so that's it's kind of good getting all the candy and eating it on it for uh the next three weeks and scary movies. I love horror movies.
Speaker 5:You know what, Jacob? Different perspectives is what makes life interesting.
Speaker 3:Give me your best horror movie then.
Speaker 5:Oh god, no.
Speaker 4:My favorite horror movie uh is this movie called Stay Alive. It was made probably about 2006, and the premise is if you die in a video game, you die for real, and it's based off of the real life Dracula. It's great, it's so good.
Speaker 3:Jacob Bourne, where Dean Linke is the king of mentioning his wife every episode, and we missed Dean today. Jacob is the classic random music, random movie, random guy. Very random.
Speaker 4:Our creative team loves me because I send a metal song every Monday, and this entire month of October, it's been horror-themed music videos.
Speaker 3:My son, my son Max is a big horror, horror movie guy, and not me, not so much. The Exorcist did me in. Oh, yeah. Are you dressing up as anything for this Halloween?
Speaker 4:Yes, me and Laura, my wife, we will be Morticia and Gomez Adams.
Speaker 3:Okay, like that. Like that. We'll we'll need some we'll need some pictures. I'm gonna go Christmas as well. I honestly love decorating the house inside, it just feels super cozy when you have all the Christmas stuff up, and you're all it's hard to be in a bad mood when you walk in your house and there's lights and there's Christmas village and you know, all those things. So that and just enjoyed spending time with family. And I'm I I like giving gifts. Gifts gifts are fun. So that's that's always fun to see if people like your gifts. I will say one thing I warn you against is last year we played what we called the Christmas Olympics here at the house with me and the and and Amy and the four kids. The first game was the smack the person with a tortilla when they have water in their mouth and see if they can keep the water in their mouth. And it was me against my wife and smacking your wife with a tortilla. I find I found out bad idea. It's just a bad idea.
Speaker 5:I have no idea what you're talking about. I think this is one of those things I award you zero points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Speaker 3:It's one of those where I hit her with it, and then I looked at her face and I was like, oh boy, that didn't go well. That was not good. So, yes, there you go. With all the holidays coming up, Halloween for you, Jacob, on Friday. Man, we'll be thinking of you in I'll hate and all the kids coming and bothering me uh in my door. How about that? That's all we got, Christian. Another great conversation.
Speaker 1:As always, see everybody in two weeks. Thank you, and thank you, Christian, Doug Bracken, Reed, and Jacob. I also want to thank my producer, Colin Thrash, and all the great people at the East TNL, including each and every one of you, all the great members, coaches, and administrators of the East TNL. And as Doug Bracken just said, we'll see you in two weeks for another edition of Breaking the Line, the ETNL podcast. Thank you for listening to Breaking the Line, the ETNL podcast. And remember, if you have a question that you want answered on Breaking the Line, the ETNL podcast, email us at info at the ectnl.com.