Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
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Breaking the Line: The ECNL Podcast
From the US to Finch Farm: A Conversation with Everton International Academy's Mark Thompson | Ep. 129
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Breaking the Line has gone international!
After the historic announcement of the ECNL International Tournament, Powered by Coaches' Voice and in association with Everton International Academy, ECNL President Christian Lavers and ECNL Vice President Doug Bracken sit down with EIA's Mark Thompson, one of the major players in the creation and implementation of the International Tournament.
In Episode 129, Thompson discusses his playing and coaching career, including stops in both the United States and United Kingdom, and dives into Everton International Academy's role in facilitating and ultimately hosting the International Tournament. This leads to a broader discussion about the talent levels of youth soccer in both countries, the factors that lead to that, and how the sport can grow on both sides of the pond. The episode then closes out with a great Bracken Brain Buster regarding the best soccer match each person has attended in person.
As always, make sure to submit any questions to https://ecnl.info/BTL-Questions, to subscribe to Breaking the Line on YouTube, and to follow the ECNL on all social channels.
This is Breaking the Line, the East ML podcast featuring East NL President and CEO of Christian Labors and East NL Vice President and Chief of Staff, Doug Black. Today, a special guest I do a special announcement. The guest, Mark Thompson, Everton International Academy. Why? Well, the first ever East ML International Tournament, powered by coaching boys and an association of Everton International Academy, will be out in Europe in top 20 ETML boys and ETML girls team traveled to the United Kingdom in May of 2026 to compete against Premier League and Women's Super League Academy teams at Everton FC's world-class first team training facility. There's so much more to learn about, there's so much more to talk about. And let's let Christian, Doug, and Mark Thompson do that now. Take it away, Christian.
Speaker 6:Well, appreciate the introduction as always from Mr. Dean Linke. Here we are. Mr. Brocken back again.
Speaker 5:Yes, we are. Always a pleasure to be here. Have a guest today, which is nice because esteemed guests. We do. Because I've had to just talk to you solo pretty much for the last month, which has its up benefits and you know you can say there's some downsides to that. Some downsides.
Speaker 6:It's always positive when we can bring in an English accent to the podcast. You know, yes. Bring somebody who's at some level has worked on both sides of the pond, as they say it. So uh welcome to Mark Thompson.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 5:We should say that Mark is with the Everton International Academy in England. How long have you been with Everton now, Mark?
Speaker 2:Just over a year, full-time. Um, but I've worked the last two summers or three summers uh as well as uh just as an international coach, uh working across a variety of sectors, mainly uh on summer camps and clinics over in the in the U.S.
Speaker 6:Everton is rapidly becoming our favorite Premier League club, I think, is is fair to say. We had we had a wonderful trip over there, some good hospitality from Mark and his team a few weeks ago, and obviously the big announcement of the inaugural ECNL International Tournament, powered by the coach's voice in association with Everton International Academy, and gonna be a really, really cool event for four ECNL boys teams, four ECNL girls teams. Mark was instrumental in setting that event up. So, Mark, why don't we start actually with you giving a little bit of background about yourself and then we'll go into how did this event come about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. Uh I'm I'm really not that much of an interesting person, so I'll keep it short and snappy.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I had a uh You got to work on your elevator speech.
Speaker 2:I um yeah, I had a short, short career, sort of young youth team uh at professional club, 11 all the way up to 19, went into non-league football, which is very much part-time, and got to around 30, and then he started to ache and creak a little bit. And I started to explore coaching, wasn't sure whether I'd like it or not. And off the back of actually uh a relative getting uh involved at a professional club at a young age, uh I decided to sort of offer my services as a volunteer. And then within five years, I was sort of up to my neck in uh academy football, coaching courses, qualifications, learning. Yeah, and loved it, if I'm honest, absolutely loved it. And then I had a uh yeah, got the got the offer of a full-time role in football uh at a League One club, which was which was great, small club, variety of roles, anything from U19s all the way down to the U7s and the U8s, real small core member of staff, uh sorry, cluster of staff. So we did a lot of a lot of jobs across the board within the academy. That was Peterborough United. So yes, uh Sir Alex Ferguson's son, Darren,'s been the manager there for quite a long while now. So yeah, he's a bit of a legend there. So I was there for a for a period and then left there for a couple of different reasons. Wanted to try and progress within my my career as well, and and that that led me to making regular trips across the pond. And I was doing that on and off for about five years. Then ended up uh through COVID. COVID struck a little bit, and obviously we were we're not allowed to travel. So um I actually transitioned from a part-time role into a full-time role at uh a local club, which is National League. Um so that's basically like league the fourth division now. Um I was a technical director there and under 19s uh coach, and we had a really good run in the FA Youth Cup. And then, yeah, coming out of COVID, I got the opportunity to uh to explore a role over in the US, which I took and led me to be coaching within the ECNL platform for a period, which was thoroughly enjoyable. And uh yeah, and fast forward three years and here I am back at Everton Football Club working very fortunately up for a Premier League club.
Speaker 6:Oh, a winding road it is. I mean, we'll probably talk more uh about your experience coaching here uh a little bit later. So let's use this as a pivot, maybe, Doug, to how did this tournament come about? Obviously, you you had coached in in America, so you we had some uh awareness of the ECNL before you moved back to England. What was it that created this opportunity? And then how do we get this across the line? Because something like this has never happened before, as at least as far as we understand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, as soon as I got the role basically to head up the international side, I remember speaking to Magnus actually at the coach's voice, and he was like, Oh, you know, how's things going? And I said, you know what, I'd love to do a really big international tournament and get the top girls' players over, top boys players over, and and just let everybody see from both sides of the pond what each level's like. So then I think he, you know, he I think you guys had some conversations, and then before you know it, he's like, Well, we can do it. So I was like, okay, great, what do we need to do? So then obviously I was throwing my hand to go and try and facilitate, which the club are incredibly motivated and and really keen to get this across the line because it's it's great exposure for the players as well, right? It's it's different competition, it's different level of competition, it's different type of competition, and ultimately it's tournament football. Um, so I assume something that they were really keen on. So yeah, once we we you know we managed to sort of dot the i's and and cross the t's, we uh we had the the the great fortune of hosting you guys to to look around the facility and I think we uh solidified some of that at that at the at the table in the canteen, sat with uh with some of the staff.
Speaker 6:Yeah, it's gonna be an unbelievable event. I mean, it it's like we said, four four boys, four girls from the ECNL. The they know who they are. They're in the process of planning and booking travel, and you're in the process of finalizing the tournament participants. There'll be an announcement on that here in the coming months for May. The event will be in May 2026. We look at this like it's a gonna be a comparison and and a nice competition between some of the best players and teams in America with some of the most storied academies uh and professional developers of talent in England on the men's and the women's side. And that's the on field piece. And then as anyone who knows who's gone abroad, especially in England, but anywhere abroad and played soccer and done a soccer trip, it is a transformational experience in terms of just being immersed in a country where soccer, football is is everything in sport, and that's not been left out in this event. So we'll have some unbelievable opportunities for the players on the field, some unbelievable opportunities off the field. Uh, obviously, you worked with Magnus in putting this together. What were your driving thoughts and how to make this a special event, both on the field and off the field?
Speaker 2:I think there's a few different areas within it, Christian, to be honest. Um I probably shared this story with you, but I'll keep it short. Well, I've got a friend who was at a Academy as a youngster, and he got released, as everybody tends to do. And um, he talks about his experience, and all he ever talks about used to always tell me about a tour they had to Sweden the year after they went to Norway, the year after they went to Spain. And he always talked about the fondness of those life experiences. And I think certainly in professional football in in England and in Europe, most of the time, kids' dreams come to an end at some point, whether that's as an 11-year-old as they get released and they go off and play grassroots, or whether it's, you know, a 21-year-old who doesn't get another contract. But I think it's it's really key that they get good memories and good life experiences from that. So I think those are a huge factors within this, as you as you've touched upon, the cultural side of it and the life lessons of travel and different experiences within different cultures. And I think that's a huge part of it. So I think that is a massive takeaway from certainly from the guys travelling over to the UK. And I think for the for the teams in the UK playing the American teams, like I hope they get very, very pleasantly surprised with the level of play, and I'm sure they will. And so I think it's eye-opening for both and on different levels, on the pitch and off the pitch. So yeah, so when we had the opportunity to to you know to put this together, we were we were super keen for a variety of reasons.
Speaker 6:I I just turned around because uh when I was a U16, I went to I have a little pennant here of the Reebok Canary Cup hosted by Norwich City in 1992, that uh I remember going to play in. And to your point about the memories of of playing and then meeting for a meal with the teams afterwards that you competed against, and then the the tourism, both soccer and historical. I think it's a life-changing experience for a kid to get. And we're super excited to be able to offer that experience and support that experience for the teams on our end. Doug, I know you've been to Europe more than me, actually, from a soccer perspective, in terms of travel. You're a bit of a soccer nomad when it comes to going to see games and experiencing international soccer.
Speaker 5:Yeah, definitely. Uh during my early adult years, I would just go and travel around. Question I wanted to ask you, Mark, is what what do you think the perception of the teams that from the English side that may participate as of the American players and teams that'll come?
Speaker 2:As I say, I think it'll they will be they will be surprised at the level because they might not know of of the platform, right? They might not know of the ECNL unless you know unless you know American soccer. I don't, you know, you you're not that well versed in the the levels and the platforms that are available. Uh and if you do know that you know you know the level of of playing the ECNL, right? So I think that will surprise them. And again, I I would I would hope on the female side that the teams that are coming over will be incredibly strong compared to the I won't say compared to the female teams that we're going to be putting out there because you're going to be talking about, you know, hopefully some of the the best teams in the country. But female soccer's is it's seems far more established in the US than it is in the UK. I think obviously the um the success that the the national teams had over the last few years has helped with that and certainly helped with with awareness around around soccer. And I think there's more interest in ever than on the girls side. So I'm really, I'm really, really looking forward to the uh to the girl side of the tournament, to be quite honest with you. And from a football club perspective, I know the owners who are obviously you know Texas based, they're they're super keen on investing on the women and girls side, obviously with the use of Goodison Park for the for the ladies' team. So I think it's gonna be good. It's gonna be a good spectacle and it's gonna be a good opportunity to, again, as you say, raise awareness and and open eyes of the level of play that's that's that's participated in over in the US. So yeah, I I think it's gonna be it's gonna be really good. I'm so excited.
Speaker 6:I think there's gonna be a surprise on both sides, to be honest. I think, you know, if we speak stereotypically, uh, as you said, you know, the uh the American game on the women's side is perceived to be you know much advanced than most countries in the world. Although, as as has also been much discussed, the gap is closing and as it should, as countries develop more, invest more, and take it more seriously. No matter what we do, the gap will close to some degree. But on the men's side as well, I think there'll be some surprise from the English teams about what the quality of the American male player is, because I we we think that has dramatically improved over the last 10, 15, 20 years. But I think the women's side may be surprised by some of the quality that's in England, because that has grown significantly over the last maybe shorter time period, five, 10 years. But my my hope is that there's a little bit of surprise on both sides, and we end up with a really something that we hope is going to be, you know, an ongoing relationship where we can share information. And I should say it should, it'll go more than just the players and the opportunity to meet peers, friends, competitors from uh a different country, but also for coaching staff to get to know each other and to to talk and share our uh thoughts and differences between the American game and the English game. What do you think about that? I mean, you've obviously been you coached here for a while, a short part of your career compared to your time in England. But what is your thought about the American game as a whole when you compare it to the English youth game?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. I think when I when I went into the role that I was in in the US, it was very much to sort of lay some foundations around um technical proficiency at a younger age. Uh, I know we we spoke a little bit about that when you guys were over, certainly me and Doug chatted about that. So I think that is uh an area that's I wouldn't say lacking, but it probably needs some attention, just getting, you know, the the kids tech more technically proficient as a younger age to to aid the development as they get older. And I think it's uh that's a real challenge. And I think it's a bit of an educational thing, you know, because players, parents and players like to compete way way more. They see the benefit of competing in terms of getting against each other, being aggressive, working hard um in the US and in England. If you tried to put a technical session on with kids in England, they would understand the reasoning behind that a little bit quicker than they would, in my opinion, from my experiences, than you would the kids in the US. Um I think they think if they're not, you know, in 1v1 battles or being aggressive and and being hardworking, that they're not learning. So I think that's like a bit of a cultural shift which comes within within clubs and and and leadership within clubs to to make sure there's a balance there of making sure you're technically capable, but also a willingness to compete and work hard and and be competitive. That's what I saw as the biggest, uh, the biggest hurdle, if I was being honest.
Speaker 6:So when you say technical session, if I hear you correctly saying, you uh you would believe the average English player is more willing, interested, focused potentially in a technical session than an average American player. What do you mean by technical session? Are you talking about like unopposed technique, or are you talking about a session that's focused more just on technical execution versus decision making? What do you mean specifically?
Speaker 2:I would say, yeah, the technique and the unopposed technical work in terms of passing patterns, unopposed, uh unopposed practices that you know don't focus on decision making. They focus on the technique of doing the action uh and executing the action rather than doing it with pressure. I found that it was always tough to try and drive the interest within the players when they they were either you know, either whether they were executing decisions or whether they were in a game scenario. I always found that a little bit challenging. So yeah, I'll definitely say unopposed technique work, slower work, less, less sort of intensity within the work.
Speaker 6:That's a topic of debate all over the place, right? Of how much unopposed technical work to do. And it probably varies by club. When you look at the teams in England, and maybe you can speak specifically from Everton or maybe, maybe more generally, what percentage of the training time is spent doing that and maybe pick a couple different age groups? Because obviously it'll change from U8 to U18.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. Certainly in a foundation phase, which is sort of UH to U12, I would say 50% of their work would be across a week, would be technical proficiency. Not all unopposed, maybe some semi-opposed, but a lot of it would be very much around the technique of the action that you're trying to execute. As you get older, maybe into the found yeah, the youth development phase, which is what 12 to 16, I would say that probably drops to around 30% of the session would be would be technical, and you're going into some to some competitive stuff, some opposed work, and then you're going and probably going to go into small-sided games uh with restrictions and conditions and stuff like that. So yeah, certainly at the younger age, there's a there's a higher emphasis on the the unopposed technical work.
Speaker 6:So I would say that that is a higher percentage of time than in most clubs here, although you know you may have a different percentage even in in Germany or Spain based on philosophical differences as well on that. But what would be your guess in those if we break up down 12 and down here and then 13 to 16?
Speaker 5:It's probably gonna vary wildly from club to club, isn't it? Depending on what the person in charge or values I think it'd be hard, hard to say. I mean, you spend you're spending a lot of time right now in that phase. I I did it particularly when when I first started coaching in youth, club soccer. I worked with some younger age groups, and we spent a lot of time on technical work. I don't know if it was 50%, but it was it was a lot.
Speaker 6:Well, I don't know what what uh what do you think, Christian? I mean, you're out there. My guess, and this is somebody's gonna come yelling about how they do it differently, but uh I don't I don't see many environments where 50% of the time is is doing that. I actually was thinking about this the other day and you know, in preparation for some other discussions about youth development, about I think one of the challenges in those H roops is is once you establish the understanding of the biomechanic piece, is actually continuing to correct it and focus on it within some type of competitive environment, right? Which I think is a real weak area of coaching. It's one thing to teach biomechanics and ball manipulation and that sort of stuff without pressure, but then how do you actually continue to reinforce correct execution when you add opposition and you add decision making, which is which is a tough one? It brings a into comparison also the differences in just the whole youth setup between England and the youth.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean, one of the questions I was gonna ask Mark was what are I think the priorities maybe in the setup in England, because a lot a lot of what we're talking about, Mark, right, is is professional clubs and their priorities uh in in player development may be different. I'm not saying they should they should be different, but they are probably different than maybe what the priorities of a youth soccer club here in the United States that has no direct connection to professional. Can you talk about that a little bit? You've seen both sides of it.
Speaker 2:The the academy work around the brilliant basics, and and as I spoke to Christian, we're gonna be delivering uh at the convention this year, and the assistant head of academy coaching is gonna be coming over with me and delivering a session around some of the brilliant basics around uh U10 age group. And he's gonna be doing a lecture um around what they look like at the club as well and how they differ from age to age and how they evolve as it goes from foundation phase up to the youth development phase. So that's gonna be a really interesting piece of work if if people are there uh and they want to hop along and and and see what we what we do. Um I'd say the main proficiencies are passing and receiving, ball mastery, uh 1v1 duels with pressure from the front, from the side, from the back, and then and then into small-sided games and ball striking. So there's probably three or four real key components at the younger age groups that are that are a big a big priority. Now, they should all be a priority. Everybody at every club, whether it's a professional club, pay-to-play club in the US in terms of an ECNL club, or whether it's uh a rec club, um, that kids are just there playing for the fun of it. It's all there's all a piece of long-term development focus around all of that. So I think there's there should always be the focus of of what's what's best for the for the the child and the children within within the environment of learning and enjoyment, right? So it's a real balance, as as we all know. But I think there should always be a focus of uh of long-term development within the individual, within whatever we do and whatever level.
Speaker 5:When you were at, let's say Peterborough United at that level, would you say that you guys were driven by developing players for the first team? Was that your primary motivation?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Get them into the youth team, get them a youth team contract, uh, and then get them onto the first team. And and and they were really good at that. Um I mean, there was kids there's a kid who was in one of my groups for a few years, he then moved on, he made his debut at 15, uh, he then got sold to Sheffield United for two, 2.4 million, something like that. But his journey looked a lot different to somebody that you know was probably technically better than him, he was probably more physically capable. So it's yeah, it's it's I think at professional club it's all about assets and getting these people into the first team or or or certainly giving them careers. I think that's something that uh that Everton are very, very proud of. Is um their goal is to set them up to get into the first team if possible, but if not, let them have a career, you know, enable them to go and have a career within football at whatever level that is. And I was deal I was given a stat that we apparently we'd just overtaken Man City actually to be the fourth or fifth most most productive academy in the country in terms of you know players going on and having careers. So yeah.
Speaker 6:Can I ask a uh a question on that, Mark? Because I thought I had a conversation, I can't remember with who, but when you talk about uh like let's say U16, U17, and I think at some point we should explore the age at which recruitment changes in England, right? Because there's an age where you're limited geographically and then an age that opens up. But if you look at like an FA Youth Cup, there are competitions in which these academies say this is more about performance and winning. They may be a much smaller piece of the competitive calendar. But can you talk about those that because I think that's actually an interesting target, maybe for us, Doug, is for for clubs to understand really there are certain competitions you go and you it is about playing to win, and and there are certain competitions that are far more developmentally focused. We're we are probably very skewed in this country at a young age, you know, which is the biggest issue. But where and when do academies say, hey, this this is something that we are going to try and play and win to this competition.
Speaker 2:That it that's again, that's that's certainly changed and altered over the years. There was a there was a time where there was no no competitive leagues in professional academies up until basically until you got into the youth team, which was U17 and up. But I think they saw gaps within that in terms of development and in terms of desire to win, that what what it wins, what it means to win and lose, and you know, and probably kids were going away thinking, oh, it's okay, we've lost, no worries, no league, so it doesn't matter. So I think they saw gaps within that, and then they got to U 16, and then they they odd they added in a U 16 league because they're closer to the youth team. They then went to under 15s and they added in an under-15. So I think I don't know if for it, I don't know if it's definite, but there's definitely league structure at 15 and 16 within academies now, might even be 14. But to supplement that, what what what teams would do or what academies would do would they go and try and play in festivals and and just one-off tournaments that they could go and enter against top grassroots teams, or even maybe the some academies would do that within themselves to add that element of competition and figure out what it's like to win and lose. And you know, I I know kids that have been in an academy since the age of eight, gone all the way up to 16, they've never won a trophy. They've never they don't never known what it's like to win a cup uh or a league because they've never been in any. So I think they recognise that, and that's that's now a lot younger. I think there's fours and against for both. It i I think in long-term development, it's a byproduct, one's a byproduct of the other. For me, if you if you look if you learn and develop well at younger age, you're gonna see the the fruits of your labour as as the kids get older and they develop, so they're gonna win more games. And I think if we're talking about the winning and losing over the development piece, I think that's something that will rumble on forever. But as I say, I think if you're doing things right structurally uh within a framework at the younger age groups, then you your team should be successful because you you you're teaching the kids or you're setting the kids up for success because you you're enabling them to be proficient and competitive uh as they move through the ages.
Speaker 6:Maybe you can outline the academy recruitment policies that that are in England and the geographic restrictions that uh end at what age or expand at what age. How does that work?
Speaker 2:I think it's got a little bit tougher with with the Brexit. I I'm pretty sure at 18 kids are eligible to be signed on professional deals. I couldn't sit here and tell you that the depth the the definitives behind that because I wouldn't want to give you wrong information. But again, you know, if kids are on dual passports or or they're eligible to sign passport-wise, they can be signed at any age. I I wouldn't want to give you information that was wrong. Um, so I don't want to I want to be a little bit non-committal on that one if I'm honest.
Speaker 6:The perception has been in our country, and and this goes back uh to people who used to coach like US youth regional teams, you know, which pick the best kids in theory within a region of the country of you know, eight, twelve states, something like that, 15 states, depending on the region. That the American, and I'll speak on the male side, the American player at U 14, U15 measures up pretty well in competition with a foreign academy. And but that rapidly starts to change at age 16, 15, 16, 17, somewhere in there, there's there's a big gap that opens up that is not there at U14. At least that's been the perception for a while. Doug, would you would you agree with that? Yeah, that's right. And it's probably easy to point. I think somewhere around that point, the foreign academies can recruit outside of their smaller geographic area. And that I think impacts some of the player pool. But the bigger issue is somewhere around that age, the American player continues to train two to three times a week, mostly age appropriate, and the aspiring English or or European player is now training six, seven times a week with players m older than them on a regular basis if they are are capable. But that creates a gap that really then we struggle to close as a country when it changes. Would you agree with that assessment, Mark?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I I think so. Um I mean that's that's one of the the the challenges, certainly in the younger age groups that I found in the US, is there's just so much choice for the kids in terms of sports. For kids in England, they like mostly boys, they're just gonna they're just gonna always commit to football first and they're gonna, you know, parents are driven to to try and help their children be successful. So I think it's I do think we've got a bit of a leg up there because we've there's not much else to choose. So kids do play five, six times a week. Um, I know the guys at the academy, they train four nights a week and they play games at a weekend. There is a lot, yeah, there is a lot more focus, I think. And I think, as I say, I think the the choice of sports and other other avenues isn't so so vast over here. I guess is that something that you guys struggle with in terms of a challenge with with older age groups or is that younger?
Speaker 6:You can answer two on this, Doug. I I think it's younger for sure. I think by the time they get to 14-15, most top players have have decided that this is where they want to focus. And I do think that one of the evolutions of clubs over the last 10 years, 15 years has been to try and meet the needs of those players more. With, I mean, if you 15 years ago, probably two trainings a week was the was generally the standard for a lot of people. Three was for the committed player. Now I think three is the standard, and four is for the really you know committed, high aspiring player. So I think clubs here have evolved to try and address some of those needs. Doug, what do you think?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I'd say so. Probably more socioeconomic realities here. Obviously, we talked about this when we were there. You can fit 77 UKs in the United States just from a landmass geographic perspective, right? So it's you know quite a bit smaller and and more concentrated and therefore probably easier to coordinate some of the stuff that you guys do. But also I think there are some socioeconomic differences for the players, you know, at the entry point here than there are than there are in England. That's a reality. Our population is, you know, obviously a lot bigger. So we have a lot more to choose from from the starting point if we can get get them than than you do. But I think maybe to your point, you counteract that by soccer being the first thing or football being the first thing that kids think about when they think about playing sport in the UK. I I agreed with you, Christian, that to the point that we can control it, we have tried to address some of that that you talked about. But I I just think there's some coordination realities, some socioeconomic realities probably here.
Speaker 6:Uh well, how let's let's I want to touch on uh that a little bit. I mean, Mark, in the US, where you were a part of a pay-to-play club where the parents pay. And that that price, as we've talked in previous podcasts, it's not cheap, but it's it's also not cheap to have somebody give a lot of their time, and uh especially somebody with experience and whatever. And then if you compare that to a let's let's pick an age group, let's let's say U15, you know, a comparison of a U-15 pay-to-play American club with the parents customer and a U15 professional academy team, which certainly there's no charge in England if you're on their team, and there may be players in there who are being paid already at U-15 in some regard. How does that impact the environment of the coach and of the player?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it takes away the challenge of of the level of play, right? It's not just the people that can afford it that play the game. You you're truly getting the the talent that or the best talent around that wants to play the game. We're fortunate enough not to have that issue. So it's truly, as you say, the the the kids don't pay to play in Academy Football, they're they're invited.
Speaker 6:How how does it uh affect the ability of the coach? Because you're right. I mean, obviously, the second you eliminate an economic barrier, you're gonna have more people able to play. We can talk and debate about how many, where does that problem start in the US? And I think it's as most things, it's much more complicated. But when you talk about I I guess what I'm teasing at here. Is it is when you talk about focusing on technical sessions or the commitment of the player in the technical session, uh is that also partially driven by the fact that these guys do legitimately aspire to be pros, some of whom might be already paid to some level, um, and they look at it just more seriously.
Speaker 2:There's no want for desire. They they they bounce into the building and they bounce out because they want to be there and they they want to give everything to follow their dream. So there's no yeah, there's no challenge there in terms of motivation for the kids and and and and yeah, opportunity that they see. So I think it's always easier for the coach if you've got a group of kids there that are completely motivated to to take in anything that you're gonna throw at them. Um that certainly always makes the the coach's life a little bit easier. But on the flip side of that, sometimes as a coach, if you've got you know a more challenging group that might lack a little bit of motivation or or their concentration wanes and wanders, you've got to find a way to keep them engaged, right? So I think there's there's two different ways of looking at that. I think um it certainly helps the English side for sure.
Speaker 5:England, particularly in the last, let's say, and this is just your opinion on this, in let's say the last 20, 25 years, have pretty consistently developed world-class players, right? Where we would say the US probably we haven't on the guy's side done that. What would you attribute that to?
Speaker 2:I do think it's down to the the options that these kids have available in terms of other sports. You know, when we give an example, when we we moved over, my my little boy was, I don't know, nine, ten, and he he all he wanted to do was to try baseball and basketball and NFL and see what it was like. He's like he gets enough of football at home. So I do think that is a big factor within it. But as you say, there's a lot there's a lot of factors that are uh away from the the pitch that that make things challenging. So I think it I do think the fact that we I do think the fact that we have a lack of other options for kids, it just it sends them straight towards football. And you know, unfortunately, you know, peer pressure and and kids challenging each other continuously. Yeah, I guess it just drives the drives the level, doesn't it?
Speaker 6:I'll add to that from an outside perspective, because I've I've answered that question to some degree, Doug, with uh the a look at culture. Because and you see this, you know, as cliche it is as it is when you watch the documentaries of clubs that now abound, right? About uh clubs, whether it's Wrexham or Birmingham or any of the uh prime series. But you know, when you see these people, these supporters, these families, that their so much of their life is wrapped around their support of the football club. And, you know, mom, dad, brother, whoever, they they all played. And you compare that cultural saturation with an American youth player, to your point, where there is not as much of a family history of supporting a professional club, much less being involved in the sport to any significant degree. And then you add the variety of other sports and activities that are generally available to an average American kid. It does create a very different feel around the sport. That's it's part of the reason why going on an international trip is such an unbelievable experience for American soccer players who love soccer because they are for the first time immersed in a culture that lives and breathes it every day. And where, you know, I don't want to speak in too much grandeur, obviously, but it's just a different feel for those kids. And I think that does impact uh the approach to the game, the understanding at an early level of what the game is and could be. And then, yeah, the the choices here, uh maybe a chicken and the egg issue as well, when it comes to the the choices here in terms of what what makes the other choices more exciting. Is it that they're there or is it that there's less of a uh an emotional and historical connection to one sport?
Speaker 5:I mean, I would say that's for sure true. That was one of the things I experienced again when I started going over, and I would come over, Mark, just by myself and travel around for whatever, three weeks or a month and go to games as much as I could. And back then, just kind of aging me, but you could go to training. Like you could you could go in and sit in and watch training or call somebody you knew who knew somebody who could get you into training, right?
Speaker 6:Not so many gates back then.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, no, there's that's gates and uh permits and uh QR codes. Fingerprints and QR codes. Uh yes, right. So, but just to see the that culture, I spent some time particularly like in Newcastle one time, and I just went to training and saw some youth teams train during the week in the lead up to them playing you know at St. James's Park um on the weekend, and just to see that kind of how that just energy ramped up around the city and then the game and then you know, that kind of uh thing. So I do think for sure, Christian, it's it's like that. I I mean the only thing I can compare it to here is like college football. It's kind of the only thing that I can compare compare it to is it's college football. It's just kind of a uh cultural.
Speaker 2:It's cultural.
Speaker 5:It's cultural, 100%.
Speaker 2:Did you get that sense when you count to Finch Farm? What's that? Did you get that feel and that sense of the culture when you count to Finch?
Speaker 5:Yes, but it feels much more corporate, if for lack of a better word, than it did then. It felt more than that.
Speaker 6:Well, that's not Finch Farm.
Speaker 5:You're talking about evolution of the game. Yes. It felt way more. I don't know if I could say like, you know, 25 years ago, it just felt like more connected to the no, uh not that it's not connected to the community, it's just hard to hard to explain it. Um but it did it did feel it did feel this this time and recent times I've been over it, felt more corporate. Like, which there are obviously important reasons for that and all that. So I'm not you know questioning that, but it it did feel a lot more loose. And I remember having uh dinner in a restaurant in Newcastle with my buddy, who was uh Alan Shearer was there just eating dinner and nobody was bothered. It was just sitting over there. So right. So but yes, I thought the facilities that we saw when we were at Finch Farm and just the professionalism and how the setup is is just un you know, really incredible, honestly. Just what's at what is going into helping trying to help these kids become professional players and follow their dreams and all the resources that they have available, unbelievable.
Speaker 6:So and and and some of the I think the corporate structure you're talking about, one of the real positives of of uh let's just call it organizational structure, is when we were sitting in uh the the lunch area or the the the the cafeteria, and you see boys, girls, old, young coming through. Obviously, there's you know really positive things about the nutrition and the education around nutrition that goes into it, but when you talk about just sort of a a cultural area for people to see what the future looks like right in front of them and to eat with or next to somebody who is where they want to be in a year, two years, eight years, I mean, that that type of investment and that type of uh commitment to physical infrastructure, it it's only possible in a pro game. And it's you know, it goes back all the way back to when you said, uh, I think at Peterborough, when you had a player that did get signed first Sheffield at two and a half million. I mean, right now, if you're a youth club in America and you have a player that goes to a pro club, I mean, if you get a scarf and $2,000 contribution, you've done well. You know, I mean, it's just there is no money coming down from the pro game into the youth game, which means there is no way to defray all of those costs. I mean, two and a half million dollars goes a long way in covering infrastructure and creating facilities and paying for time and all that sort of stuff. And I'm not pretending that you know that's like a daily occurrence there or anything, but we we just don't have the equivalent here.
Speaker 2:No, and you know, I've got I've got a good story on that. There was uh I had a friend who he played for Crystal Palace, Southampton, and he went into youth coaching. He was actually assistant coach at um Exeter. And I remember speaking to him about what their youth setup was like and you know, how was the academy? And he said, We've got a kid, I think he was 13 at the time. We've got a kid who was already training with the first team. I was like, oh wow. And he said, uh, we're gonna sell him when he's 15 because they want to go to a higher category. Um, and what they would sell him for would allow them to buy a dome, uh, an indoor dome, which would get them category two status. And it was actually Ethan Amperdue who now plays for Leeds Leeds United Captain went to Chelsea. Chelsea bought him. Um and he was training with a first team at 13-14, and apparently he was the best player, he was just unbelievable. But they from a business side of it, they'd already mapped out when, at what point they were going to sell him and what they were already going to use the money for. So, in terms of right reinvesting into uh the facilities and and the category and the and the level of education that the that the next group of players could get. So, some players, you know, some clubs, you know, they sell players on to survive. Um, some do it to because they just do, some do it to improve uh infrastructure. So yeah, I think each each club's got their own story. And I just thought I found that really interesting that they already mapped out the the business side of that years in advance.
Speaker 6:Uh listen, if we could sell Doug for some type of physical asset, I mean that we would take offers.
Speaker 5:You probably wouldn't get a lot, you know. Not a dome, a dome is expensive. There's a there's a there's an age where you're doing one step from the glue factory, so I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't put too much on that. I wanted to ask Mark this question too, because this is uh important as it relates to Everton, and we got to see this firsthand. But and I I've been to Goodison Park to see see a game, sat behind a pole. Uh it was but it was unbelievable. It's great.
Speaker 6:Having moved into the new stadium, which uh we got to see when we were there and it's an unbelievable stadium, an unbelievable location.
Speaker 5:Unbelievable. What has that done for the club?
Speaker 2:I think it's done two different things. I think for the women's side, it's been a huge uplift. They're now playing their games at Goodison Park, and that's their home. And I think, if I'm right, I could be wrong, but I think that they they're the only team to have a a full stadium like that as their home, as their actual home venue. Uh, I think some of the other ones play at play at smaller venues. Um so for from for that move, the women's the women's side should have elevated unbelievably and and give given you know masses of um motivation for the female, for the female players within the club and within the area within the city to see that there's such huge investment and opportunity on the female side now. But on the on the men's side, I think, you know, I think um attendance has gone from 30, 35, 36 to 51, 52, 53. And and you've been there yourself, and I was fortunate enough to watch the Tottenham game a couple of weeks ago and to see it full, which was my first trip to the stadium on it on a game day. Uh incredible. Well, absolutely incredible. I think it just brings it brings a lot of things. It brings a lot of obviously commercial opportunities. Um, it obviously brings attraction for players. I mean, would you have signed Jack Greedish if they were still at Goodeston? Maybe, maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. But to play there and be there every week, I think that certainly upscales the level of player that you might attract. I think it just adds adds another level of motivation. Imagine being a 10-year-old Evertonian now that could play at Goodison and now you can play at Hill Dickinson. Like, you know, I'm not saying that they need any any extra motivation, but I mean, what a place. Um, you guys were, you know, we were fortunate to spend some time there, and it's it's unbelievable. So I think on a lot of uh a lot of different levels, it's added uh a lot to the club. You know, because at some point you've got to, you know, um you've got to catch up and be in the modern world, right? And I think that's certainly put put the football club, you know, right at the top of that uh in the country in terms of facility because it was crazy. And I mean, you know, we I think the clubs just hosted the ashes in in rugby, which was a couple of weeks ago, and I think that went down brilliantly. So even that attracting to the area, it's bringing different sports, different opportunities. So yeah, it's uh yeah, it's phenomenal. Every time you turn, I was there last week for some some training and and I just driving in, I'm just like just keep looking and noticing different things. It's uh yeah, it's it's phenomenal. I think it just brings us in line with you know some of the powerhouses, hopefully, of uh of of modern football.
Speaker 6:I'm sure there's a lot of people thinking, well, why Everton? Right? What is it that made Everton do what we think is actually obviously really smart? You know, the elite clubs national league, the best clubs in America now having a direct competition with the Premier League clubs in in England and and and the UK. Why was Everton willing and open to do this in such a formal big way? Open your home, Finch Farms, which you know everybody in soccer knows the name Finch Farm because of the store, the history of the players that have developed through there. What was it about Everton that said, hey, this is something we want to do? Maybe you can speculate, but why why Everton now and why other clubs haven't done this in the past?
Speaker 2:Obviously, I've had a huge part to play in this because it was something that I was really keen and instrumental in trying to deliver because I just see the value of it for everybody. I see the value of it from a footballing perspective, boys and girls from both sides, as we spoke about earlier in the podcast. But also, I think me knowing the the level of play and the aspirations of teams in the US, I just wanted to be able to to one highlight to the UK and certainly us as a club, what else is out there? We've got US owners. So, you know, they're gonna want to have some presence in the US. And I thought, what better way than bringing over some of the best teams in the in the country to come and be part of, you know, be part of Finch Farm, be part of Everton. And for the from the other way, you know, because we we talk about pathways and exit routes, there's a small percentage of kids that go and have careers. So if we can highlight to some of the kids within, you know, the the English teams the level of play in the US, they might they might finish their footballing career and not getting a contract at the moment to go to college or might want to, you know, go and play in the USL or in the MLS if they couldn't get in there or or whatever. So I think it was really important to to showcase that. But and I think I think the club, if the club thinks something's good, gonna good is gonna come from it in terms of a player experience, then they're that's why they're called the people's club. Like they're they're they're they're very much if it's good for the players and it's good experience for the kids, then we'll do it. You know, we were talking to John, uh, who's the head of uh head of estates and and we were talking about there's two entrance, there's two entrances into Finch Farm. And uh one's like a back entrance where like they come in the side gate and you can come, you know, past not past security, the uh the other way, and the other one's through security, which we we drove through. And uh we sat there and I could see him sort of pondering and he said, uh if these we're not we're not gonna put these in through you know, because it that's where the buses park. So he said, look, you know, he said, if we're doing this, uh these guys need to see uh the best of what we can give them. So we want us, we want, we want them to go away and and have have had the best experience of Everton and Finch Farm. He said, they're coming in the front gate, however difficult that is in terms of logistics and and and and buses and whatever, he said, they're gonna get the best of the experience. So I think that has a huge part to play as well. Like the club does want to do good things for people. And if you know if people are committing to coming from the other side of the world, I think the club wants to give them the absolute best experience they can get whilst they're with us. So I think there's a lot of things. There's a the culture of the club is huge. I think it aligns with the culture that you guys have as an organization, and I think that were the two things that probably brought it together and made it happen quite easily, really. In the end, it's not easy to get clubs to open up their facilities for people, as you as you well know. You're not going to walk into many other front doors uh and have have the facility for a week. You're just not. That's the that's the you know, that's the nuts and bolts of it. But we we we wanted it to happen. And if you want to make something happen, there's always a way. So we got there in the end. So we're we're super excited.
Speaker 6:Like I said, I think Everton has risen to the top of our Premier League fan list. And you guys certainly rolled out the red carpet. Sorry, the blue carpet. You rolled out the blue carpet. I'd like what you did there.
Speaker 5:Good catch.
Speaker 6:See what I did when we came over there, and we're exceptionally excited about the opportunity for our our players and teams uh in our in our league to go over there and and have some unbelievable games uh in an unbelievable environment, meet some people and be immersed in the in the football culture of Northwest England. And so thank you for all your work on it. I know it wouldn't happen without you, and obviously the club's foresight and and openness is a big piece of it, but there's got to be a champion to get things pushed across the line. So we appreciate you and of course the Magnus and David and the guys at Coach's voice who've also helped in making this possible. Yeah, we uh it's a pleasure.
Speaker 5:Yeah, we we have it now a tradition on this show where we ask a question at the end. So prepare yourself. It's sometimes it can be it's called the Bracken Brainbuster, which is a real I'm nervous now, don't a real genius name that uh Dean Lincoln came up with. So prepare yourself. We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we'll uh we'll lay it on you here.
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Speaker 5:Prioritize your safety on the road with our thoroughly tested tires for top-notch traction, handling, and durability. Drive with confidence. Find your dealer at continentaltire.com, Continental Tire Smart Choice and Tires. All right, here we go. Jacob, I hope you can answer this question, my friend. I hope you can answer this question. We're gonna let Mark go first, and he's probably gonna have the best answer. Today's question is what is your best soccer football, if you will, game experience as a fan? Best soccer game experience as a fan. Probably need to be there, right? Probably have to see it live. What do you got?
Speaker 2:Eric Cantonar, Man United against Norwich City, away at Norwich, Caro Road, got sent off a stamping on a plan.
Speaker 6:Cantana lost his temper, what um yeah.
Speaker 2:Uh do you know what? I because I was involved in such in uh you such intense youth football as a as a kid, I didn't watch loads of games. I think the 99 Champs League final was something special to witness uh as a Man United supporter, half and half, obviously, with with Everton. That was that was something better be careful. Smart that that was something special to witness that and and actually met Oli Gunasovshaw a couple of weeks ago at the Everton Tottenham game. Yeah, so that was pretty cool. So I think as a fan, not live, but I would I would say I would say that game, um, the 99 final when they they came back and beat Byrne in the last last couple of minutes.
Speaker 5:How did Eric Cantona and Roy Keane play in the same team? It's one of the miracles of the game. Very carefully managed uh rondos.
Speaker 6:Yeah, some aggression there.
Speaker 5:Yeah, Christian, you're up. Best soccer game experience as a fan.
Speaker 6:I did a trip in 2016-ish, I think it was. Uh it was sort of a tour of Spain when when uh US Club Soccer was working with La Liga, similar to Mark, you know, my 50% other supported league. We had the ability to see not only just the youth setups of a lot of clubs from you know the the big three to you know clubs you've hadn't heard of that develop players that move on. But we saw a Champions League game at the Bernabéo, we saw a Europa League game at St. Mamas, which is uh Athletic Bill Bowels Stadium, and we finished with a La Liga match of Barcelona, and this was Barcelona in its heyday, and of course, you know, Messi scored on a free kick, and we were sitting right right uh around 20 yards from the end line on the goal that was scored. And that was back in the the absolute peak of Barcelona quality and and and style. So it was a pretty, pretty special 10 days.
Speaker 5:All right, love that.
Speaker 1:Jacob Born. So I'm gonna give two honorable mentions here. One was watching the John Brooks goal against Ghana in the 2014 World Cup at Ballpark Village in St. Louis. That's probably one of the best experiences watching it on TV. And then when I worked for the union, I saw uh CJ Sipong score a hat-trick against Red Bulls, which was the first hat trick in uh Philadelphia union history. So that was pretty cool. But my favorite moment has been uh STLFC, which used to be USL one, they overcame a two-goal deficit in the final 10 minutes to beat the Charleston Battery 3-2, including a last second goal. Like they scored the goal and then the game ended. And so the fans came on the field and uh the team celebrated in the supporters section. So that was one of the coolest soccer uh moments I had in a stadium of 2,000 people just going nuts for a uh for a lower division team.
Speaker 5:Very nice. I'm gonna take the Jacob route and have a couple honor men honorable mentions. One would be Everton versus Leicester at Goodison Park, raining sideways. It was the day that I had my first full English breakfast, which was something to remember. Wayne Rooney, young Wayne Rooney, came on and scored the game winner after Les Ferdinand and scored for uh Leicester City. Great, great game. Absolutely electric, but it was uh it was raining sideways. And then I would say my son and just being able to go with my sons, we went to uh a Liverpool uh game. I won't say we are or not Liverpool fans, but we definitely love Everton as well. But having the opportunity to just go with them and my wife to see a Liverpool game was a great experience. They played Brentford, it wasn't a particularly great game, but just a great experience. Best game as a fan ever. Believe it or not, US Mexico World Cup qualifier in Cincinnati, TQL Stadium, the place was a madhouse. Dosos Cedro. Uh once again, the US beat Mexico 2-0, and the place was absolutely rocking. So that was good. So those are my that's my best ever. Although, Christian, Sunday, November 23rd, FC Cincinnati against Inter Miami in Cincinnati against Messi. I'm gonna be there, maybe. That'll be a good one. So we'll see. I might have a new list.
Speaker 6:I might have a new list. Well, we'll wrap that with we're super excited about the first ever international tournament in partnership with Coach's Voice in association with Everton. Really appreciative of your work to make it happen, Mark. It is happening end of May. Two-day tournament for the boys, two-day tournament for the girls, the best of America against the best of England. We'll just we'll that'll be the tagline we're gonna go with because I think it seems pretty accurate. And hopefully this will be the beginning of a long relationship and connection with Everton and with connecting the rich history of UK and English soccer with the up-and-coming Americans who we're hosting the World Cup here soon and hopefully will be upcoming and then some uh in 2026.
Speaker 2:We're super excited as well to have you guys over. We've got uh a nice landing page on the website. If anyone wants to head over and take a look, loads of cool features, a little countdown on there, and once we get announcing some of the teams that we uh that we uh we're gonna be playing against, uh, we're gonna try and do them probably weekly leading up to Christmas and make a bit of fun of it. So yeah, head over and have a look at the landing page, some really cool content on there, ETNL content and some Evan content as well. So yeah, we're super excited. Can't wait to have you.
Speaker 5:All right, Mark, thanks for joining us, and uh thank you out there, everybody. See you in two weeks.
Speaker 3:Thank you for listening to Breaking the Line, the ETNL podcast. And remember, if you have a question that you want answered on Breaking the Line, the ETNL podcast, email us at info at the extnl.com.